Faith, Failure, and Humanitarian Work - Maurice Bloem

Maurice Bloem has spent nearly four decades in development work, from leading the Church World Service's humanitarian efforts in Indonesia to representing CWS at the United Nations. He now leads the Joint Learning Initiative on Faith and Local Communities (JLI), a network that encourages collaboration with local religious communities in development initiatives. Our conversation covers his path from cultural anthropology in the Netherlands, to a decade of work in Indonesia, to his current global initiative. We also discuss what Bloem calls his "resume of failures" and why inner development matters as much as policy frameworks.

Show Notes:

• Maurice Bloem website to learn more about Maurice and access his podcast, Walk Talk Listen (https://www.mauricebloem.com/)
• Joint Learning Initiative on Faith & Local Communities (https://jliflc.com/)

Transcript

Chip Gruen: 0:04

Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host, Chip Gruen. I'm excited to welcome today's guest, Maurice Bloem, who serves as the president and CEO of the Joint Learning Initiative on Faith and Local Communities. He's an absolute pleasure to talk to, and I think you'll enjoy listening to my conversation with him, his career is as illustrious as it is interesting to hear about. As you'll hear Maurice begins the conversation by talking about his what he calls his resume of failures. Given all that he's accomplished this might seem surprising, but it sets the tone for a conversation about learning, humility and inner development, and all of this marks his work. What I think is most important for our project here on ReligionWise is to hear his orientation and JLI's orientation to religion in humanitarian and development work. He trained in the Netherlands as an anthropologist, but then went on to work for the Church World Service in Indonesia for about a decade, including their response to the 2004 tsunami, which just absolutely devastated that area. One of the things you might listen for is the relationship that he sees between secular development organizations, that is both governments and NGOs, non governmental organizations and religious communities. Maurice describes himself as not particularly religious, but he really understands, nevertheless, how religion is important to the vast majority of people we share this earth with. If you try to help a community while cutting out its deeply rooted religious institutions and leaders, you disadvantage yourself, not only for understanding the worldview, but also for understanding the mechanisms that get things done in those places where religion is held so deeply. This is the core of what JLI does. It makes the case that development institutions can't achieve their goals, or at least can't achieve them, most effectively without engaging local religious communities. The organization works with groups like Worldvision, Islamic Relief, UNICEF, and others to build evidence for what faith communities actually contribute to their shared humanitarian and development outcomes. The other thing I want to mention is how Maurice really does walk the walk of the work that he does. He's passionate about the inner development goals, or IDGs, as he calls them. These are about cultivating your best self and showing up for the people around you. He's very thoughtful about his own development and how that can aid the project of helping others. Finally, he hosts his own podcast called Walk Talk Listen, which is really worth checking out. He mentions it here, and we'll put the link in the show notes. It emerges from his personal practice of walking 100 miles in a single week, and he's done some form of this since 2011. On these walks, he talks to people and tries to understand them, taking very literally the idea of walking in somebody else's shoes. He uses what the ancients call a peripatetic style, learning through walking, being mindful, staying embodied, using that, not only to raise awareness, but also as a personal practice, and maybe even what we might call a devotional practice. So with all that in mind, here's my conversation with Maurice Bloem. I hope you enjoy it. Maurice Bloem, thanks for coming on, religion wise, this is great.

Maurice Bloem: 3:42

Yeah, no. Thanks Chip for having me. I mean, for me, it's a, as you know, I'm sitting- I feel that I'm sitting on the other side of the table n ow, you know, I interviewed you, actually for my podcast, Walk Talk Listen shameless self promotion here. And definitely, you know, I would invite the listeners of your podcast to check that episode out, because I really enjoyed it. It's strange for me to be on this side of the- and better. I think, I'm better at asking questions than answering them, so I'm a little bit nervous in that regard. And then I think also I've become, I don't know how you think about it, but I've become a better listener as a result of making podcast. Okay, many still think, including myself, that I'm a continuous work in progress, but I do think that I am getting better at it, and listening is really something that we should all do as humanity, more. We are so quickly with, you know, coming up with an answer. 'Oh, I know where Chip is going with this, and I don't like it', you know, so quickly. But if we would really listen, then very often would realize that, 'Hey, there is something that I can learn something from', or, 'Hey, I did not expect that from this person'. So there is a there is a possibility for dialog here. And you know, we lack that in this world, you know, known to be a poly-crisis world where so much is going on and a lot of polarization is going on, and I think, you know, to get to a solution or a better place, you know, yeah, listening is maybe number one thing that we need to do. So, yeah, happy to be here Chip.

Chip Gruen: 5:42

Well, it's, it's a shame that you feel out of place on that side of the microphone, because your career trajectory is so interesting. I mean, there's so I mean, some of these stories we've talked about before, some of them I'm learning about for the first time, so I'm really excited to to get into that. So let's just start with that trajectory as a whole. So you hail from the Netherlands, studied anthropology and then embarked on your career in humanitarian work. Can you talk about the connections between that educational and professional trajectory? How did you get here where you are now?

Maurice Bloem: 6:16

Yeah, and, you know, this is one of the questions that you sent to me. You know, to talk about this that I had to- I was thinking about it, because then you look maybe at your resume and think, Oh, what have I done, and how did I ultimately get here, right? And, and then I was listening last week to another podcast, and they were referring to a resume as well, a CV as well, but a CV of failures. And I, as far as my knowledge goes, which they mentioned, also in that particular Dutch podcast, Melanie Stephan, in 'Nature', in 2010 came up with that concept in terms of the CV of failures. And because she did not get a proposal, which we all have gone through, right? And so I thought, yeah, you know, in a way, you know, the my resume of failures would tell my story much better than my list of successes. And which is also interesting because, and that's maybe because I'm anthropologist, I always look at, you know, culturally, how do people react at certain stories? And one of the stories of my resume of failures or of successes is that, you know, I I did my last class of my high school twice, so I failed the first time. So when I tell about this, in the US, they look at me like, how did you do that? That's not possible. Well, in the Dutch system, actually, to do your class one again or two or three. That's not crazy. I mean, sometimes, you know, children are not ready for and they let them play more. In my case, you know, it had to do with, I got into a moped accident, and so I was out for a couple of months, you know, due to meniscus injury as well as a concussion, and so, you know, I failed the first time for the last year. And then the second time I almost failed again. So- why is that, Maurice? So, well, my girlfriend at the time who is now my wife. I mean, she was successful the first time. So she was gone, my friends were gone, and so I was most of the time with her, or if I was not with her, was writing poems for her. So, so I, you know, so you think about this, right? It's, it's at that time, it did not feel like a success story. I was also not bothered by it, but, but, you know, other people saying to you, and especially sometimes when you tell that in the context in US, you did it twice? How is that possible? And now you are the CEO and president of an organization. How is that possible? But if I look back at it, you know, those moments shaped, really my life and what I'm about the particular moped accident did result in, I had a couple of things that I wanted to do after my high school. Five things actually travel, music, soccer, study medicine. And then, you know, music and soccer were not possible anymore, because for, you know, music, you had to- right as a drummer, so you had to be able to play almost 24/7, right with your knees. It was not possible. Soccer is also out. So then suddenly, instead of five choices, you have two left, and that's medicine or travel. And you know my, my brother in law is a medical doctor. My brother was a medical doctor. And I always had seen those books, you know, in their rooms, very thick books. And then I realized, when I did some more research, that you had to memorize many of those by heart. And I thought, that's not my strength. You know, what I will do travel. And so how can you travel? And that's, you know, that's how I ended up with anthropology. So, yeah, not nothing. I mean, I'm always intrigued by students that I work with now they didn't know already where they want to go. I never had that. It was not until I went to do my field work in Indonesia, in the Indonesian Borneo, when I lived among Dayak communities together with Catholic priests, that I kind of slowly started to feel like, okay, this is the type of environment where I would like to work. I was moved to see how people you know, went from one world to the other, from traditional way of lives to modern systems, from Christianity because they in Indonesia, you have to choose one of the five religions, main religions, like Christianity, you know, Islam, Buddhism, etc, and then they will still continue with the indigenous practices. So you know that experience definitely changed me, you know? It made me realize that I like that bridge building, translating, trying to connect things. And maybe that has to do with my own identity. You know, I'm a Eurasian. I have, you know, I'm rooted in colonialism because of but I'm also in my body is also the colonized person. So slave, how do you say that owner? That's part of who I am, that's part of my ancestors. So maybe that also has to do with those connections that I'm searching for and that I'm intrigued with, intrigued by and because I will look back at my resume of failures. So, yeah, I hope that's, that's helpful.

Chip Gruen: 12:09

Yeah, no. I mean, it's, it's funny, you talk about both, like not, not knowing where you're going, necessarily, unlike many students today, and then the idea that you can taste failure and it is not fatal like those are gifts, both of those are gifts. And I wonder if we're not affording our students, you know, that we're not doing our students a disservice by not offering them the same gifts, right? That failure is sometimes okay, and you don't need to know where you're going and what you're doing.

Maurice Bloem: 12:40

Yeah, and you know what I've seen? Because you asked me, you know certain things in the beginning, before we started recording, what do you see happening in the States? Because I'm, you know, I live here now, right for around 16 years. I've lived in Bangladesh for around seven, in Indonesia for 10, and I was to think about 25 years or so in the Netherlands, which is still considered my home country, so but I've seen a lot of different contexts and how people react and what is necessary. And you see, you know, yeah, the parents with their children, they're so worried about what would happen about life. And I think if you and it's so weird, because if you look at data, you know, I think in the Nordic countries there, they let their children play, right? They're not concerned about tests, and those children are doing pretty well, if not better. And you look at well being, the Nordic countries are doing very well, actually, on that those indicators as well. So if you know all those data, why are we still continuing to push for growth and, and you know, we will talk, hopefully later, a little bit about sustainable development goals, why have we, we have created this world that's not in balance, you know, where we're struggling and where we should be concerned about the future of it, and also for our great, great grandchildren. Why are we then still pushing for that, and why are we not looking for more harmony and balance? Where does that come from? So, yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely concerning. You know, the world that we have created.

Chip Gruen: 14:24

So I want to jump into two particular points in your development. I mean, one, obviously we'll get to your work now at the Joint Learning Initiative. But I want to go back about 20 years. You mentioned that you'd been a long time in Indonesia, and in fact, you spent years working for the Church World Service in Indonesia, including their response to the 2004 tsunami. Can you talk about that? I mean, I read that I didn't know that about you, and I read that about you, and I thought, you know, gosh. I mean, horrible, like, what one of the single most horrible days in, you know, in my 50 years of living, just seeing the the sheer loss of life, and you were here at the center of it. What, what was that like? How did you feel the Church World Service responded to that like, what were you called on to be at that particular point?

Maurice Bloem: 15:20

Yeah, I mean, the time that you know that I lived and worked in Indonesia was extremely important for so many ways, right? Personally, Indonesia was also important. My parents were born and raised there, right? They were also your they are also the Eurasians. They were there in Indonesia when it was still a colony of the Netherlands, in camps as a result of World War II, Japan, you know, you know, did similar things like Germany in other parts of the world. So both had been in camps they, you know, ultimately they are freed, and then they think we go back to our lives, but Indonesia calls itself independent. And then my parents had to make a choice, staying there, you know, become Indonesians and or going to the Netherlands and start their life there. Although they had never lived there, they had a quick conversation, arguments. My father wanted to stay. My mother wanted to go. My mother won the argument, and as a result, all the children are born and raised in Indonesia. Sorry, in the Netherlands, so, but I always heard stories about Indonesia, and you know, then I went there as a child for vacation. You, I already told you that anthropological field work had done in Indonesia. And then after seven years of Bangladesh, had opportunity to start working in Indonesia, which was great. And because for me, it was like, Oh, maybe I go home. I realized, you know, this was not my home, because it was, you know, as a mix, you Yeah, it was the country of my parents, but it had also changed, and it was definitely not my country, and I loved it, but it was not my country. Anyway, so after Bangladesh, I was kind of ready for, oh, we go to a country now where I can do development work, where on, you know, in contrast to Bangladesh, where we had always floodings and typhoons or whatever. It was, very much dominated by humanitarian and emergency response stuff. In Indonesia, I have done more humanitarian stuff than in Bangladesh as a result of civil strife, as a result of the tsunami, as you mentioned, so. And yes, I have had experienced many different disasters in Bangladesh, but never something of the magnitude what I've seen this devastation of after the tsunami in Indonesia, if you talk about total flat land, that's what I saw there, flatland, everything destroyed, except maybe a mosque still standing. I had staff members of Church World Service because we had, although we were an American, US NGO, we had maybe two or three foreigners. The rest was Indonesian colleagues. So I had staff members who had lost, you know, 10-12, of their family members as a result of the tsunami, we had NGO partners who had lost many family members, you know, everything the projects. So it was, was terrible, as you as you mentioned. However, what I also realized there, when I was looking and talking and listening to my colleagues as well as to our local partners, is that the enormous resilience, which is often already present locally, really long before you know, that whole international system catches up. And what happened on the on the good side was that everybody wanted to go to Indonesia, Thailand, because it was all, all had been on on television, right? So everybody wanted to help. But also organizations came in that had never worked in Indonesia, and they started building houses and houses that people didn't want to live in. And I remember that, you know, we had an older system. We had, we were already working in Indonesia before the tsunami, and we, together with the local community, we started building houses, much more use of local materials, local carpenters. So to get their jobs back, you know, to get they, you know, those type of things while we were criticized for going so slow by outside assessment teams. You know, look at the other NGOs, and they've built these houses. But those houses were not used. Why not? Because they were built in certain times at places where, you know, people had died and where not, the right ceremonies were used before you start, you know, using the land again, and all those things we, you know, because we were working so closely with the local population we had taken care of. And to be honest, I would have lived in those, some of those houses that were built by these foreign, you know, the International, the outsiders, let's call them for the moment. But no that those houses didn't work for the local population. So, but the enormous pressure that we were on because, you know, Oh, you don't spend enough money. You need to go faster while, if you ask, you know, to the local population, until today, and you ask them, How was it to work with Church World Service? Well, you have to say JVS, you know, abbreviation in Indonesian they, they like how we work with them. You know, the water problems that we've made together with them are still being used. The houses that we build are still standing because we also build houses that were earthquake resistant. So, so we, you know, we used the local carpenters, and we did come up with the expertise and saying, yes, but if you make this roof a little bit different, then the next time it will not crack, you know. So, so there was this combination of of not romanticizing, you know, everything that is done at a local level, you know, but taking it seriously as well as there is always some expertise that you can use from outside as well. And how do you find that balance and be, yeah, open and listen to what is needed at particular point in time. The other thing, what I would like to mention in terms of my personal growth, because we're talking about the resume of failures as well. I mean, I started it is, is, you know, when you, if I, if I look at my whole career, what the tsunami did was also generate quite a lot of money, which was unheard of normally. When you have an appeal. You're happy that you get 10% of, you know what you actually need. But our appeal was fully funded and more, so we money was not a problem. So then you have, as a responsible person, you have a lot of money to your disposal. And then there, I think, in my career, was definitely moments where I thought, Oh, this is all due to me. You know, I've been such a great director or manager and, and then things happen, of course, then then suddenly you because of your or partly because of your attitude, you you run into walls and into problems. And then when I analyze it back, you understand how that, how that happened. So, you know, what I started to learn there is that there is a continuously need to work on your humility, on your empathy, on your listening. And what I like is, you know, the inner development goals that have been developed recently that if you want to change systems and structures, you also need to continuously develop and strengthen your your inner development of yourself and your community. And it's I compare it, and other people have compared that with muscles. If you not train certain muscles, if you don't train your muscle of humility or empathy, you think that you still have it, but, you know, I cannot even see my feet anymore, you know, so because the belly is in the way, right? So you need to train, you need to continuously train your muscles, your inner muscles, your outer muscles. So, yeah, there are so many lessons from, you know, living and working with great folks in Indonesia. And, yeah, it was, was, was awesome time. And also Chip for me, the kind of was really thankful for is that, you know, my father, my parents left Indonesia with a lot of fear. They didn't want to return because they had left the country that was in war and, you know, and they were, initially, were really afraid, and then when I lived there, and my brother also lives there, at the time, they realized, oh, you know, that's all gone. You know, it's forgiven, and we can live here. You know, I've never seen my my dad as as happy as he was when he lived for, you know, a couple of months in a year with us and with his grandchildren, but most of the time he was outside, talking with the local population and eating a lot of the Indonesian food that you can just get on the street. You know, that's what I miss. If you ask me, What do you miss? Well, I miss the food at any time of the day, good food. So, so, yeah, no. Thanks for reminding me about Indonesia, it was awesome.

Chip Gruen: 25:12

So, yeah, well, so I want to sort of, it seems to me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but your career and your career trajectory is really this balancing act between valuing the local, valuing, you know, the context of the places you're working, but on the other hand, being connected to these large organizations, being connected to NGOs, right? And as you've just indicated, right, that there's a there's something of a balance there, that there's something that can be gained from each side. So you later represented the Church World Service at the United Nations. I mean, we can't talk about a larger, more significant, right organization that does this work than that, and much of their international development work is organized, organized around the sustainable development goals, and that exposure, right? Really shapes the framework that you work in, shapes how you think about faith based actors, etc. What, what did the time at the UN and in particular, sort of the exposure to those sustainable development goals? How did that affect you in the work that you you did and you continue to do?

Maurice Bloem: 26:21

Yeah, no, and thanks for that question, because, I mean, there were, you know, things that I'm proud of and but also a lot of frustrations as well. But I think why I'm always trying to talk about sustainable development goals is not that it is perfect, but I think it gave the world a shared language. You know, it was an improvement on the goals that we had developed, of the world had developed before that, which was much more the result of in inside of a room. You know, some people came up with the Millennium Development Goals. So the Sustainable Development Goals are a result of, you know, more participation and more perspectives. That's why maybe they're also too too many. I mean, there are 17. So, you know, maybe you should focus on four or five, but at least it's a it's an attempt to come up with shared language and a framework that that, if you really look at it, that many actors around the world rally around and so that matters. And unfortunately, not all countries are doing equally their best to contribute to those goals, but they should, I think. I mean, we are all interconnected. At the end of the day, you cannot only think that your country is the most important. Ultimately, you will be affected somehow, because you cannot live in isolation anymore. That's the world that we have. But the framework, as I mentioned, really is building strong on system changes and goals and structures. And I think what it forgot is to pay attention to that inner, relational cultural dimensions that shape where the change is really possible or not so. And I think there, what I realized is that a lot of faith based organizations, faith based actors, should, in principle, be, you know, very well positioned to try to build be that bridge, you know, to ensure that there is a balance between the outer and the inner that you need to, you know, reminding people that you need to work on yourself and your community, on things like empathy, creative thinking and and that Those are an important part, if you look at the necessary system changes that we need as a world, because we have created a world that is based on growth, instead of looking at balance, at, you know, at sustainability and, and and being just. So you know, yeah, you were, you mentioned Church World Service. I, you know, I'm not a very religious person, actually, you know, I'm from the Netherlands, so we are, most of folks are very they have an allergy in talking even using the word religion. And we're not the only European country that has that. So I that's how I grew up. I was raised Catholic, but, you know, church was not very important. And my father went to church. My mom thought it was not necessary, but also because of my in-laws, you know, I ended up with Church World Service, which is a Protestant organization, right? And then you start reading, you need to start much more reading. I mean, for one that that my father in law, who had worked for World Council of Churches for part of his career, couldn't believe that they had hired me for Church World Service. Obviously, you don't know anything so about and you know, we had very good conversations, and I think I've learned a lot from him. And I think, you know, there's a lot of respect now. And the funny thing is that I'm the only person in the family that kind of get went in his footsteps, you know, into his work, because he was the Emergency Response Person of the World Council of Churches. Anyway. So religion is not very important, or church is not very important for me, but as an anthropologist, I've always seen, you know, the importance of religion and spirituality in the different countries and the people that I've met. So I always had admiration, and I wanted to work for an organization that had impact. And then I thought, like, you know, that you need to work for a faith based organization. Because if 70 to 80% of the people in the world consider him or herself, themselves to be part of a religion, then if you want to have change, if you want to, you know, push forward and have an impact, you need to work for for a faith based organization. So that is how what I've been doing until, you know recently, JLI is more of a neutral organization in a sense that we work with all kinds of faith partners, but the body itself is we are not secular, but, okay, no, not faith based. I mean, we work in the faith based space. But over time, you know, I realized this has a big impact. I need to understand more. But why are these, many of those faith based organizations, not playing the real faith based role? And what I mean with that is, at a certain moment, I did not see the difference between, you know, a World Vision or a CARE and so, you know, why not? Because it's not not to. I'm not talking about convincing somebody else that you need to take their religion, but giving more attention to the fact that when you work in Indonesia or you work in Kenya, you know, people, their spirituality, their religion, is part of who they are and how they act and what they do. So you need to to take, that, keep that into account. And you cannot say it's not important. You know, we focus on other things it's a important part of their lives. I mean, similarly, going back to that example that I gave you in terms of building the houses right is is paying proper attention to what is important for for the people you work with. And so I'm so happy that I landed, ultimately, after having worked for Church World Service for 26 years with JLI. Because for me, in a way, I'm home, home in a sense that, you know, as an anthropologist, you know, I started in working for the university, and then I slowly got into the NGO world, and JLI brings everything together again. You know, I work with academics, for academics and practitioners, you know, in the space of religion and development, where we're trying to figure out, okay, what is that added value of faith based organizations? What is evidence from whose point of view is something considered to be evidence? Can we include more voices while we co-create new findings, where we really learn mutually, where we are in dialog. And that's so that's something that JLI has been trying to do from the beginning, and, yeah, we're trying to push that further to the next step. And I think it's more important than ever in this polarized world that that is happening. So I'm, yeah, I'm really thrilled and thankful that I'm given this opportunity to work with a great team, but also work with the community. You know what, Chip was interesting when I had never heard about JLI, which is so strange because, you know, Church World Service should have been aware of JLI, but we were not. But then, ultimately, when I asked, when we got a new CEO, Rick Santos, who had been the chair of JLI support, at a certain moment, when he asked me to represent Church World Service at JLI. And then I was asked, you know, the long story short, I was asked to help them out two days a week because they did not have a CEO. And the first thing I did was trying to talk with people who are member or part of JLI. And what struck me is they all spoke about we, we at JLI. They even if they worked for Islamic Relief or World Vision, or, you know, any of the other organizations, they talked about we and I thought wow. So this sense of community is really core here. So yeah, so it was so important and, and maybe all the member organizations they did not even realize that they spoke like that. And but I really think that, so if you think about JLI's, it's a relatively small organization, you know, it doesn't have a lot of people on the on the on the payroll, but the community is enormous, and the contributions of of each one of them is so important and great. And, yeah, so, so, I mean, you know, sometimes organizations are are kind of, you know what? How many reports did you bring out? And, you know? And, oh, only one report is here. But I think, and that's what we're trying to emphasize. So we made, in 2022, the state of the evidence report. And very important and very good. But for me, you know, when I looked at everything that was happening, I thought, the next step needs to be a little bit different in terms of paying more attention to the process. And that doesn't mean that we did not pay attention to the process before, but in terms of, you know, the balance a little bit more to process. So we came up with the State of the Evidence Navigator. So it's a living space where knowledge can evolve, where people can contribute, and where learning is ongoing, where, you know, ultimately, again, as I said, the output is not that important, but the ecosystem that you try to build, or that you have built, and and then you know, outside of the Navigator, we are also trying to invest in something that we call IDG and Faith pathway. So is the inner development goals. But from a faith perspective, how does being show up in Buddhism or in Islam, you know? And then you're looking at things like hope and resilience, and then you realize that, you know, not in every context, there is even a word for resilience. How is that? So what is an equivalent then? Or sometimes you talk with somebody else and you think you're talking about the same thing, but actually the definition is, in a particular context, something totally different. So we are working on those type of of things that we're trying to create that platform or a table where more people can sit and share their knowledge. And so it's really, as I said, a shift from, you know, a knowledge producer to being a learning ecosystem, and that those those changes trying to work on that is not easy, I have to say, because, you know, as I mentioned, it's a great community of academics, for academics and practitioners, but they all have their own own opinions as well, which is great. It makes the beauty of it, but also it sometimes makes that you have the rubbing of, you know, yeah, what one person might consider research, and for another person, that's not research. So yeah, we have, we have some interesting things going on there. So...

Chip Gruen: 38:08

No, it's, it's interesting to hear you talk about this because, you know, I'm trained in religious studies, you know, which, of course, anthropology is one of the major disciplines that influences the growth and development of religion studies. So hearing you talk as an as trained as an anthropologist, there's so many things that resonate with me. I just want to underline the idea that all conversations that involve religion don't have to be religious conversations, right? You know that is so hard for people to understand, right? That you can say about yourself that you're not quite a secular person, but but at the same time, not super invested in in church structure or organization, but that you appreciate that different worldviews lead people to live in different symbolic worlds, and that that has real world effects that we need to pay attention to. It's just, it's just music to my ears, it's so, so wonderful to hear you talk about that, because it seems, I mean, I think to both of us, you know, it seems like a really natural place to land, but so much of the world doesn't see it that way, doesn't understand it that way, right? It's not about religion, it's about politics, it's about power. It's about, you know, it's about any number of other these, these these things, right? But if, like, you say, 80% of the world sort of believes that the motivating factor in their life is, is religious identity, and that that guides their belief in practice, like, maybe we should pay attentionto them, right?

Maurice Bloem: 39:35

And, no, absolutely. And, and I realized I kind of started talking about you know I'm not that religious. And you know for sure, not in the beginning. I come from the Netherlands. I did not finish that off, because what I did, what did happen to me over time, because I have so much admiration for, you know, I've worked in Church World Service, and I, you know, many of my colleagues, you know, their calling, right? That's how they call it. I first, I didn't understand what that was. What is that calling? You know, I'm fascinated by this, and I see how different they are. It's, it's beautiful and and powerful, and how it helps people to, you know, keep on going during difficult times. So they are, I've been right after a tsunami or a flood or the situation that many of the people around the world are in, religious communities, they are incredibly powerful forces for good, and they provide meaning, belonging, resilience, and often also practical support in very difficult circumstances. So I've, you know, gained a lot of admiration for its role at the same time, you know, we also need to acknowledge that they can have, can and have contributed to exclusion, inequality or even harm. So I think the question is not if religion is good or bad. I think the question is how we engage with it responsibly. So at JLI, we approach this with humility, or try to approach this with humility and openness, openness, recognizing both the potential as well as the risks, and working with partners who are committed to really this inclusive, just and life affirming approaches. And that's Yeah, and that's how Yeah, that keeps me going, even even though, you know so many people at the moment are living in very difficult circumstances.

Chip Gruen: 41:43

Yeah, so I want to chase down something that I've thought about a lot, and this isn't the specter of the religious organization that could potentially cause exclusion or harm, but it's a different kind of risk that I'd like you to think about with me, and that is that there's a certain way of thinking about the state, about government, that it has kind of responsibilities towards its people, right? That, that, and particularly you coming from the Netherlands and thinking about Northern Europe generally, right? That there has traditionally been a sense that health and welfare and basic human needs and basic human dignity, that there's a role for the state to play in making sure that people don't fall through those cracks. I'm sorry to say, not quite as strong a tradition of that in the US, but some and one of the things that has happened because the safety net is so porous in places in the United States, let's say, is that there becomes a reliance on NGOs, on faith based organizations, on good intending individuals working corporately, working in groups, in order to solve some of those problems. And I wonder if there's a moral hazard there. Is it that we let the state off the hook, right by stepping into that breach and and I'll just give a one particular historic, historical example, when George HW Bush, you know, one of his State of the Union addresses, wanted to talk about, you know, how does one solve so solve social issues in the United States? He talked about the 1000 points of light, and I can remember him putting his hands together in such a way that any and the argument was, of course, that, well, we've got all these great, you know, faith based institutions among others, who can step into the breach and they can feed the feed the hungry and house the homeless, and that that's a great solution. But of course, that went hand in hand with the idea that that the state should be as small as possible, and that it's not active in that work. This is, of course, I mean, obviously I have huge admiration for your work, so it's not an indictment about humanitarian work through NGOs, but I wonder how you think about that, and how you think about responsibility and where it lies.

Maurice Bloem: 44:06

Yeah, no, I mean, first of all, I mean, as you said, like I come from a country, you know, from the Netherlands, right, and when I left, we had a pretty good system in terms of, you know, when people did not have a job or were sick, then you know, you could have access to support. And, of course, you know, there were cases that was misused or was not sufficient, but in principle, it was working. And, and, and and why was it working? Because everybody understood that, you know, you pay taxes, and those taxes will help to provide to people who have difficulties and but what is very important when you have such a particular social system is that everybody understand how it works. If you stop explaining how things work, then you know, then you don't know, why am I paying tax? What is being used? What is being used for? Or you know if, if you have a society or culture where it's not taught to you to to work on your muscle, empathic muscle, you know, then those whole systems becomes problematic, right? So I see that in in a lot of the European countries as a result, because they wanted to imitate, you know, the growth successes of the big brother country, US. I mean, it's all has changed since I have left. So, so that's important to note. Now, when I came to the US, what I admire is that there is a strong, you know, desire to make it so, you know, if you put your, you know everything in it, then you will reach and I think there is nothing wrong with that, but you know you also need to acknowledge that sometimes it doesn't work, and then people need to support and it is nothing because the person that tries, but you know circumstances are there, And then you need to support each other and so. So that's that is one thing that I see in the US. The other thing is, what is really magnificent is that people volunteering is part of what you do. And maybe it is changing a bit. I don't know the numbers, but I was flabbergasted by that. I mean the fact that I mean Church World Service, for example, there's the crop hunger walks and through churches. You know, they raise, they used to raise a 50 to $70 million for the work of Church World Service around the world, both inside as well as outside of the US and I, I, we don't have something equivalent in the Netherlands. Because I, you know, I always jokingly said we don't have volunteerism because we don't mind paying tax so, but the truth is a little bit in the middle there, right? So I think we could all learn from each other in terms of, you know, volunteerism, helping each other, it's a good thing to do at the same time. There is nothing against the fact that, and I think it's necessary, actually, that the state takes care of public goods, that takes care of its community. Needs to ensure that persons can have good education. I mean, that's something else here. Education is not free, right? I mean, ultimately, if you want to, you have to, you go in deb t when you want that's ridiculous. I mean, you look at all countries in Europe, education is free, or practically free, so why can't you have that here as well? And if you don't, you know, have these educational things going on, then it becomes you, the chances that you are creating groups that don't have access are increasing. And then then you have a problem, which you clearly see. So if you ask me, you know, what is your opinion? So I think NGOs should never, and that's never how I worked with Church World Service or NGOs that have worked has never tried to replace a government in any of the countries where we have worked. We always work together with the governments. We always work together with the local governments, with but we also worked with the UN so you need to work to ensure that you have the right policies. You need to ensure that you have the right plans. And so you are present as an NGO at different levels, at implementation, at the policy level, strategies. And then you identify if there is a role for you to play. And in some situations, there is no role, and then you move somewhere else. And others there is because NGOs should be about, you know, working with those who are falling through the cracks and but very often in the past, sure that's happened is that NGOs tend to work maybe in areas that are easily accessible, you know, are not inclined to go to North West Haiti, you know, but they work closer to the capital city. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I think everybody should look into the mirror in terms of, how can we make this work better, in a better balanced way, and learn also from the different countries, I mean, but obviously the way the system that we have developed now is not sustainable, is not fair, is not just. And for faith based organizations, for sure, that's be something that is unacceptable, but not to replace the government, but work together side by side, and that's important.

Chip Gruen: 50:14

So I want to end up by coming back around to something you've mentioned already, but I wanted the inner development goals, because I think that that that seems super important to you right now in achieving some of those wider, those wider goals, that you have the aspirations, but I want to do it in the context of your own practice of walking 100 miles a week, and you've done this since 2011 to raise awareness about hunger. And you know, some of that has had to change around pandemic. You know that you've this practice has shifted a little bit. But what I'm really interested in in here, or what I want to give you the opportunity to do, is that you've really couched that as a part of the inner development goals, and that that is sort of the next step forward, not replacing, but augmenting and being a way of thinking also about the sustainable development goals. So can you talk us about your talk to us about your own practice and how this connects to these other frameworks,

Maurice Bloem: 51:18

I'm glad to and actually, this year, we are going to do it a little bit different than I've done so far, Chip but, but, so the 100 mile walk started when, you know, I was responsible for Church World Service in Indonesia, and then I had heard about these crop hunger walks in the US, right, that people would walk and raise a lot of money. So I said, you know, when I'm based in the US, I want to give back, and I want to tell the world about all these volunteers in the US who are doing this amazing work. So, you know what, I will walk from the east to the west coast, because that's possible in the Netherlands. I didn't realize that it is more, you know, challenging in the US. So my boss at that time said, you know, you're not going to do that, you will be out for three months. So then I came up with 100 mile, which is doable, in five to seven days. So since 2012 I've been walking 100 miles to raise awareness and support for ending poverty and justice. And there's all these years, it has really been a kind of an individual journey. And you know, and I'd be so grateful for people have supported it. So, so what I try to do, in those five days that I walk for seven days, meet with local food banks, you know, with volunteers and, you know, and tell their stories to the world. Why? Because, you know, I come from the Netherlands. So, so I'm able to, and I've lived in Bangladesh, in Indonesia, I'm able to tell the story to the world. Well, not the whole world, but many. And to say thank you for all people that are helping to help others. And because I think that's really great, and it's also important for yourself. And when I walk, yes, I started talking about, why am I doing this? What is the purpose? So and then it shifted right to kind of the inner development goals things in terms of of, yeah, I got to know about this, and it seems to kind of connect with with this whole 100 mile thing, because it was not only a physical thing, it was also, you know, it also emotional and thinking all kinds of stuff was happening. But so walking the 100 miles, not really, of course, about the distance, it's what happens internally. So you face discomfort, doubt, sometimes even failure, but you keep on going. So So I see this 100 mile now as both personal and collective practice for those inner capacities. And we're going to do this year a little bit differently, because I got my wife says, you get because I really get injured every time, so then it takes me a week or so to recover. So she said, You're not going to walk 100 mile anymore. So then I actually was forced into realize, but I should not be doing this alone anymore. I, you know, like I've started this podcast, right? Because during covid, I was not able to walk with other people, so I started to virtual walk with people like the virtual walk in the podcast. I should also make this 100 mile walk more collective. So that's what we're going to do this year. So it's going to be a whole year campaign, which we call the 100 mile where my colleague of JLI, Noor, will start walking in Islamabad, and he will, he's responsible for 20 miles, and he will do that, I think in three days, end of April, I will walk in New York City. I will do it in one day. And then some other colleagues will join, we hope in one in Singapore. That's a community member. JLI community member, a colleague in Washington, maybe. And. help Kenya. So we will have four or five, hopefully more, people who join this year the walk. And I think that's the right thing. I mean, now more than ever, we need to be shoulder and shoulder. The problems are too big to solve by yourself. You need to work as a community, as a group, as a collective. Now I also saw that you had a question around the pandemic. Definitely, it had an effect, not only on my walk, it also disrupted many other things. And for me, not only professionally, but also personally, personally. So for me, one of the hardest moments was losing my mom during that time, and she was in the Netherlands, you know, she had light dementia as well, and I kind of kept an eye on her by camera, and the sound was not, not really working, so I only saw her and through that little camera, I saw her also in her final moments, through the screen without sound, and was not able to be there physically and later, also not for, you know, the funeral. And so even in the Netherlands, you know, my family members there were not allowed, you know, that was having to say goodbye at the parking spot. But that was, yeah, definitely. I mean, you talk about covid, was, was the impact? I mean, it was, you know, enormous, right, on the on the whole world, something that we shared, that we realized we are all interconnected, because it's not only happening in, you know, a country like Indonesia or name it. Now, this was happening to the whole world. And what I what I kind of sort of stuff at the moment, I also so the beauty of it is that we realize that we interconnected. We there was a kind of a solidarity, but it was very short lived, unfortunately, as soon as certain people had access to vaccines, then they thought, I'm already fine, so why should I continue to be concerned about the rest? So that is really painful to see, but for me, it all made me realize how important connection is. And you know, that drove me to continue with Walk Talk Listen as a podcast. And it started as a kind of replacement for the walk then. So I will do this for a week or two or three, and like, probably, like your podcast, I'm at 300 plus episodes, you know, I don't know if it's useful for others, but it is absolutely useful for myself.

Chip Gruen: 57:52

Yeah.

Maurice Bloem: 57:52

You know...

Chip Gruen: 57:53

Absolutely.

Maurice Bloem: 57:54

...and yeah. So that's kind of how it all connects.

Chip Gruen: 58:01

So I want to be really mindful your time. I know I've taken a lot of it already, but the last question I end up with, if you could entertain for us, is, what am I not asking you about that you think I should be? What is in my myopia about, you know, the work that you do? What is the thing that we haven't addressed yet?

Maurice Bloem: 58:19

Actually, I think we have addressed many things, but, but really, what I would like to repeat is how I started, you know, with what I started with in the beginning and and really to to understand how we understand, really looking at how we understand knowledge and success. So we often present polished results, what worked, what scaled, you know, nice report, webinar afterwards, maybe, but we rarely talk about what didn't work. So that's why, you know, when last week I heard about these resume of failures. I think that a whole idea is so powerful, because if I think, if we are really serious about learning, and JLI is serious about learning, about mutual learning, ensuring that everybody, or more people, are at the table, then we also need to be honest about failure. I mean, the greats have talked about it, right? I mean, Einstein, if you've never made a mistake, I mean, I am so bad in these quotes. That's why I did not study medicine. As you know, my memory so bad. But so that you know, if there's something that I would like to give to your listeners is, is, listen, listen to your inner voice more often. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Ask questions. I'm repeating some of the stuff that my guests have said on my podcast, where I'm like, oh my god, this is so good so but it's part of learning, right? I mean, is, you know, listening to the other and seeing how it relates to what you do and what you are about, and, you know, keep on growth. Growth is important, not in a sense of getting more money on your bank account. Growth is important in terms of, you know, continuous, continue to learn, be open to the other and maybe something that also tried to say, my podcast is, and that's, I've stolen this from a philosopher called Ken Wilber, and who says, you know, nobody can be wrong 100% of the time. So that means that even you know your worst enemy, there should be something that you can start to dialog about. Now I can tell you, I can name a couple of people that I will find it very difficult for it, but I think we need to try and, you know, and then we can shift, make the shifts that are necessary. I'm totally convinced about that, and and what is encouraging, and, you know, you are the teacher, right? And you work with young people. I've also blessed that have a very young team. It's so great to see that the younger generation, they are so darn smart, many of them, and they Yeah, they listen to them, you know? And it doesn't mean that they need to do it. We need to play our role as long as we are here on Earth. But it is encouraging to see that there is so much hope there, but we also can still provide those hope and contribute to it, and we should continue to do so.

Chip Gruen: 1:01:36

Maurice Bloem, thank you so much for coming on ReligionWise. This has been great. Thank you.

Maurice Bloem: 1:01:41

Well, thank you for having me.

Chip Gruen: 1:01:45

This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise is produced and directed by Christine Flicker. For more information about additional programming, or to make an inquiry about a speaking engagement, please visit our website at religionandculture.com There you'll find our contact information, links to other programming and have the opportunity to support the work of the Institute. Please subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next time.