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Tradition and Adaptation in Ugandan Judaism - Gershom Sizomu

• Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding • Season 4 • Episode 8

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In this episode, we explore the remarkable story of the Abayudaya, Uganda's Jewish community, with Chief Rabbi Gershom Sizomu, the first native-born ordained rabbi in Sub-Saharan Africa. Rabbi Sizomu shares the history of his community, from its founding through persecution under Idi Amin's regime to its contemporary revival. Our conversation examines how the Abayudaya navigate their dual identity as both distinctly Jewish and distinctly Ugandan.

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Chip Gruen:

Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host, Chip Gruen. In today's episode, we talk with Rabbi Gershom Sizomu, who is the leader of a community in Uganda called the Abayudaya which is a fascinating, small but fascinating Jewish group in the East African nation of Uganda. Now you might be thinking to yourself that this is a little outside the bounds of what we typically do in ReligionWise, we actually have another program called WorldViews that we run on campus that asks individuals from religious communities to talk about their own experience, their own practice, their own belief, you know, for the benefit of the religious literacy of those in attendance. And if you're interested in that, you can find the archives of those conversations on our website at religionandculture.com and so this conversation today would be fitting for that WorldViews session, but I had the opportunity when Rabbi Sizomu came on to campus to talk to him, and it occurred to me that a lot of the things that he represented, and that he could talk about as a representative of his own community have a lot of implications for how we think about the intersection of religion and race and national identity and ethnicity and all kinds of other methodologically really interesting questions about how do we think about religion when we think about religion. So you'll hear him describe the origins of his community rooted in, interestingly enough, Christian missionary exposure in Uganda. But they, of course, left scriptures behind. And what was compelling to at least this community of Ugandans was not the Christian principles, the New Testament, but the Torah itself. And so they fashioned their own Jewish community from the Hebrew Bible that was left behind. I won't describe their history anymore, suffice it to say that there have been ups and downs for this community over the course of the last 100 years, including persecution by the repressive regime of Idi Amin, but they've survived. I think the other thing that's really interesting to think about here is given the unconventional history of their origin, and then growth and development is how are they received, accepted or not accepted by other Jewish communities worldwide. Now there are Jewish communities in Ethiopia and South Africa, we'll hear the Rabbi talk about but one of the interesting intersections here is, how does the State of Israel perceive this group of East African Jews? Do they have the right to return to Israel like other Jews worldwide, and if not, why? What is different about this group? Is it about national origins? Is it about the history and development, or is there something else? So there are a lot of interesting questions about how we define community. Who are the quote, unquote, real representatives of our tradition? The last thing I'll say as we go, as you'll hear mention of musical recordings that were done by this community that ended up actually being nominated for a Grammy Award. Well, I will tell you that if you go on the major music listening services like Spotify, if you search for the Abayudaya community, you can find this. It's fascinating because there are African rhythms there, but they are Hebrew texts. So some of them, for example, are the singing or the chanting of Psalms, but in a very East African Ugandan style and musical tradition. So I encourage you to take a listen to that if you can. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Rabbi Sizomu. I hope you enjoyed as much as I did. Rabbi Gershom Sizomu, welcome to ReligionWise.

Gershom Sizomu:

Thank you for inviting me.

Chip Gruen:

So the Abayudaya Jewish community in Uganda traces its roots to the beginning of the 20th century. Is that right? And can you explain how that happened, and maybe the the why that happened too. It's, it's, I'm sure it's got to be an interesting story.

Gershom Sizomu:

Absolutely. Exactly so in 1919, a gentleman called Samei Kakungulu had read the Bible, which the Christian missionaries used to convert people to Christianity. So it was the height of missionary activity, and many people had access to the Bible, but Samei Kakungulu had special access. So he read and got most interested in the first five books of the Bible, and this is the Torah, the Five Books of Moses. He read the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the whole story of Exodus, and got interested in the God of Israel. So, like Abraham, he circumcised himself and his people, and they declared themselves Jewish after Christian missionaries. We came back to them and said, you know, you are acting like Jews. And he said, from today onwards, we are Jews. And the the word Abayudaya, is actually the Uganda word for Jews, Judah, the people of Judah, or the Jewish people. So it refers not only to my community, but to every Jew in Uganda, which is the language that most people speak in Uganda. Abayudaya refers to Jewish people.

Chip Gruen:

So I'm curious now, can you describe the Jewish landscape across Uganda generally, then, if it's bigger than your community?

Gershom Sizomu:

Actually, in Uganda, the only community that is Jewish is Abayudaya community, and we are about 2000 people scattered in 10 villages and with about six or seven synagogues.

Chip Gruen:

And as I understand it, you used to be much bigger. It used to be a more robust community, until the dictatorship of Idi Amin. Is that correct?

Gershom Sizomu:

Yes, when the community started in 1919 there were 36 synagogues around Uganda with more than 8000 people. But when the founder died in 1928 there was no able leadership, and so many people were attracted back to Christianity because Christianity had schools, the missionaries provided health care and even charity. So the poor people and those who needed school and medical care went to Christianity, so most of the people were lost after the founder died, and then more people were discouraged by Idi Amin, who forbid Judaism and threatened to kill anyone who dared practice Judaism. So those who feared for their lives left. So by the end of Idi Amin, we had about only 300 people left in 1980 so the 2000 is coming from intra marriage. People like we, we advocated for people to marry within and even conversion. So there are many people who are now converting to Judaism, and as a result, we've grown steadily from 300 to 2000.

Chip Gruen:

And the governmental situation now is good for you?

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly. The current government is very friendly to Israel and to tolerant of religious institutions.

Chip Gruen:

So on that note, I'm, you know, it just so happens in the last year, I've actually been exposed to a lot of religious diversity in East Africa. We honored a professor from Tanzania who had come and he's very interested in traditional African practice. And it turns out that our local Sikh community, a lot of them had come by way of East Africa, from Tanzania, ... And I guess some of the local Shiite Muslim community are also immigrants from Uganda as well. So and, you know, and as I've been doing reading and you know, obviously you're just across the Indian Ocean from from South Asia, from India. Can you tell me a little bit about the contemporary religious landscape of Uganda and how that works, if this government is is more friendly to religious diversity? Certainly than the Amin government would have been. But you know, just beyond your own Jewish community, what does the religious diversity of Uganda look like?

Gershom Sizomu:

Uganda is predominantly Christian. We had many Christian organizations that came in the missionary activities, and they were most influenced by the Church Missionary Society of England. The white fathers were the Catholics, and we also had Muslim missionaries, and they came earlier. And the reason Islam is not as big, is because they had dietary restrictions. They also had the circumcision as prerequisites to conversion to to Islam, whereas Christianity only required acceptance of Jesus, and so many people converted to Christianity. So right now, Christianity is about 80% of the population. Islam is 17, approaching 18. It is a growing it's the most fast growing religion because they allow polygamy and also more children. So they don't use they don't use contraceptives. Uh, huh, so and Judaism. I cannot even determine the percentage, because we are in a country of 50 million, and we are only 2000 so...

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, yes. So, yeah. So you said that there one of the barriers to Islam was circumcision and dietary restrictions. Surely you run into the same thing.

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly, and that's why our numbers are not like busting.

Chip Gruen:

Yes.

Gershom Sizomu:

It's because we have more than those restrictions. Yes, we have restrictions for Shabbat, where you don't have to work and cook, you know, for holidays and many other rabbinic restrictions and biblical restrictions.

Chip Gruen:

And what does the role? I mean, we'll get into this a little bit more later when we think about the the practice of Judaism in Uganda, but certainly the indigenous cultural practices are still influential as well. I mean, they don't fit into that 80% 17% but, but surely, the the practices, the...

Gershom Sizomu:

Traditional African...

Chip Gruen:

Yes, there you go. Thank you. Traditional practices

Gershom Sizomu:

That's a very good question, actually, when we say organized religion taking 80 and 17 and us taking a small 0.0% of something, we have about 5% of cultural institutions. They are preserved. We have kingdoms, and they have cultures, and we also have traditional healers, who people could call witch doctors, and they are practicing actually, as long as they are not a danger to life government allows them to do their cultural practices, so we have it, yeah.

Chip Gruen:

Now is that separate from the the secondary religious traditions, Christianity and Islam, or are they integrated? Can you go to church on Sunday and go to a healer on Wednesday?

Gershom Sizomu:

That's a very good question. Actually, when Christianity came, they sort of demonized these cultural religions because and Judaism, because, in Judaism says belief in one God and that the same to Christianity with the Trinity and Islam, the belief in Allah. So contemporary religion sort of demonized African traditional religion, because African traditional religion believed in various spirits, so the unity of God does not resonate with the traditional African religion. So most people who are considered religious in the perspective of the contemporary religion, don't go to traditions, but we have a small group that criss crosses. They go to church, but they also go that way.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, I mean being somebody who studies religion, that doesn't surprise me at all. I think that that is, that is how sometimes we as humans operate. Let's think a little bit more specifically about the Abayudaya themselves. And I want to start with perceptions of your community by outsiders. So whether that be rabbinic Jews from other descent outside of Uganda, there are older Jewish communities elsewhere in East Africa, like Ethiopia, right? How about them? And then Israel, like generally, how is your community considered, welcomed into the broader sort of landscape of Judaism globally?

Gershom Sizomu:

First, when we go to the local communities in Africa. The Ethiopian community is just coming out to the light of the world. And actually the first time we heard about the Ethiopian community was when there was an airlift to Israel.

Chip Gruen:

Oh, okay.

Gershom Sizomu:

And that's when to in Uganda, we knew there was a community in Ethiopia, and I guess they didn't know that we existed in Uganda because of the language barrier and the fact that in Ethiopia they were hiding. And Uganda, we also had our own challenges, so we did not have interaction within the continent, the South African community, you know, without internet. And you know, this is very recent. It is very recent that people are beginning to know about each other because of the information revolution. And we can say it is a big, big thing that we have access to information. In Israel, even Israel, Israel knew about our community recently, when one of our people went there and applied for a year and they denied him. They said, We don't know your community, and you could be a bunch of Ugandans who are seeking for opportunity. You know, you are from a poor country, and you are seeking for opportunities in the in Israel. So that's how our community was dismissed. Actually, some Minister of Internal Affairs mentioned that that if we allow this gentleman to be a citizen, then many Ugandans will convert as a gateway into Israel. So we will have opened doors, and Israel will be flooded by people who are not genuine, who actually seek, maybe economic refugee, and they will use it about your community. So that's how Israel still views our community. Eventually, this young man fought using our masalti conservative rabbis in Israel and lawyers, they went to the Supreme Court, and he was granted citizenship. So we have one person who is in Israel right now and but the citizenship was granted to him as an individual and not to us. It wasn't extended, because they think when they do, it will be, we shall open the doors so wide, and maybe all of Uganda and Africa will say, Okay, let's all go to Israel. So that's the how it is. Outside of Israel you know, we have many, many friends from the United States, from other countries that have come to visit, mostly from people who have learned about our community and known that when we started in 1919, there was no Israel to go to. So that wasn't the aim of our founders, because there was no Israel and that long history, we've been Jewish for more than 100 years without going to Israel. So that Israel couldn't be the reason why we decided, Oh, we chose to be Jewish 100 years ago. So there are people who have known that, and they are very, very good friends of our community. So we have communities here in the US, in the in Europe, in Australia, that recognize our community.

Chip Gruen:

And you and your connections to the US. You studied in Los Angeles. Is that correct? Where did you study?

Gershom Sizomu:

So I studied at the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies, which is a conservative movement school. And I also went to Israel to study at Schechter, which is our masorti conservative school there. Yeah.

Chip Gruen:

And that actually, if anybody out there is wondering, this is how we come into contact, because I think a student of ours is the child of someone you met at this at the rabbinical school, yes, yes. And so this was the connection that was made.

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly, a good connection.

Chip Gruen:

Very good. So I want to think a little bit about cultural identity and your community is is distinctly Jewish. I mean, we'll talk a little bit more about Shabbat as I'm sitting across from you. You have the kippa you've talked about, you know, kosher like that that is all Jewish identity, absolutely. But yet, your community is Ugandan as well. Can you talk about those two things in connection with one another? You know, how if I, if I came to visit your community, what would I see and think, ah, that is, that is Jewish, that is Ugandan. How does that all blend together?

Gershom Sizomu:

Good question. We actually are Ugandans. We've never been anything else. We were born and raised in Uganda speaking the languages of Uganda. English was brought by the European colonialists imperialists, and they made it an official language, and that's why we speak it. But other than that, we are in Uganda, and we are Ugandans. Despite us being Ugandans, we are Jewish because our practice and culture at home is Jewish. So we are Ugandans, partly because we speak and eat Ugandan food and live in Uganda, but when it comes to daily practice, we are Jewish. We do have mesuzot on our houses. We lay tefillin every morning, and we pray in Hebrew and we sing Hebrew and we learn Hebrew. So it is some kind of Ugandan Jewish community, that's how I could describe it. So once you are in our synagogue, you hear the music is Ugandan. The rhythm and the melodies are Ugandans, but the words are Hebrew. And so you can simply know that this is a Ugandan Jewish community.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, I was thinking about this and thinking about the Ethiopian community you mentioned. I mean Ethiopic, I believe is very close, is a Semitic language, right? Is closely related to Hebrew, but your Ugandan language no connection at all. So it's quite a lift for someone from your community to learn, to learn Hebrew.

Gershom Sizomu:

Hebrew, yes.

Chip Gruen:

Okay, so let's think about that more specifically, about Shabbat observance as kind of a case in point of this very traditional Jewish practice. Can you describe what that looks like in your community, how that might be similar or different from what people who are familiar with Sabbath observance elsewhere in the world, what they would see and what they might expect from Shabbat in Uganda.

Gershom Sizomu:

Our observers of Shabbat is extracted from the rabbinic tradition. In the beginning, before we had access to rabbinic tradition, it was biblical, and the Bible is actually the source of all rabbinic traditions. So when the Bible says, the Torah says, You shall not do melachah, which English translates as work, it is not work. Melachah is melachah because even writing two letters on Shabbat is forbidden because it is considered melachah. I don't think it might fit the English description of work. So the difference between rabbinic and biblical Judaism is that rabbinic goes into details of describing what is forbidden and what is not from the Mishna from the Talmud. So right now, when you come to Uganda, to our community on Shabbat, it is like any other place where they observe Shabbat, where we light two candles, where we do Kabbalat Shabbat, the welcoming of Shabbat, where we do Kiddush in the same melodies like you do here, and where we do the Ma'ariv in the evening service, and where we have a special meal, and where people change their cloth so that they look more more beautiful on Shabbat. And we had no work melachah, in the perspective of of the Talmud is done so it is a day of complete rest, and you can feel Shabbat the way you will feel it in Jerusalem.

Chip Gruen:

So earlier, you mentioned music and Ugandan style but Hebrew words and as I understand it, you, your community has received external recognition from the musical wxpressions. Was it a Grammy nomination? Is that what it was? We will put a link in to to the episode so people, because I went and found it on Spotify and was listening to it. It's beautiful, very beautiful. Can you talk a little bit about the musical tradition in Uganda? You've said a little bit about how it's a blend, but as I understand it, you've, you've done some of this composition yourself, and can you talk about that?

Gershom Sizomu:

Yeah, actually, we go to the Hebrew books, the sefarim and so on, and they were hymns, and they were songs that needed to be sung, and we had no access to to melodies that were not Ugandan, you know? It, there was no internet, so how would you access them? And we had to make up our own melodies, and influenced by Ugandan cultural music. We picked on the tunes and the rhythms and put Hebrew words onto them, and we started our own unique Ugandan Jewish service.

Chip Gruen:

And can you tell me a little bit about, I mean, it's a, you know, not the most important thing, but this Grammy nomination, that's interesting. How did that happen?

Gershom Sizomu:

Actually, an ethnomusicologist, Rabbi Jeffrey Summit from Tufts University, came to visit and was interested in recording our music. So he had return journeys to Uganda, where he had a mobile studio with the experts, and they recorded each of our songs, Kabbalat Shabbat songs and other songs all together and put together an album, and he posted it to the Smithsonian Records in Washington, and it was selected and nominated for Grammys in the category of world traditional music. And so we were three in that category. We had an artist from South America, Paul Simon and us. So when they read out the Grammy I was there with my wife and Rabbi Jeffrey Summit and his wife. We were at the Grammys, and we waited for the nomination. They say the nomination came, and the Grammy went to Simon. Paul Simon.

Chip Gruen:

Now, how long ago was this? Was that Graceland, when he was that what he won for was Graceland?

Gershom Sizomu:

Yes, yeah, actually, they said Black Mambazo.

Chip Gruen:

Okay, okay,

Gershom Sizomu:

Black Mambazo.

Chip Gruen:

Ah, right.

Gershom Sizomu:

Mbube, mbube...

Chip Gruen:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, okay,

Gershom Sizomu:

So that was 2005

Chip Gruen:

All right, what an interesting story. So thinking a little bit more broadly about the community, about the people in the community, as I understand it, it's almost exclusively made up of subsistence farmers?

Gershom Sizomu:

Yes.

Chip Gruen:

Can you talk about that way of life, which I imagine is a very traditional Ugandan way of agriculture and etc, and how the Jewish identity helps or hinders or fits with you know that that practice?

Gershom Sizomu:

Actually, before the imperial government, the British imperial government to cover Uganda, they found Africans practicing subsistence farming. And economic activities came after imperialism, and these economic activities were actually for exploitation of African resources, and Africans were used to exploit their own resources on behalf and for the British. So in order to do this, they introduced education so that instructions can be properly understood. And actually, our education system was colonial and it did not have much substance other than speaking English and hearing it so that you can understand and translate probably. So our community did not go to school because missionaries ran the school system and before you allowed into a missionary school, you were required to convert to Christianity. So most of our that's why I said, after 1928 our community rank, most of our young people who went to school were converted into Christianity. Those who resisted did not go to school. So that's why our community has remained a subsistence farming community. Those who went to school were granted jobs by the imperial government, I see, and so the job and economic system was based upon education. And so if you were not in the school system you are out of that. You are in the subsistence sector. Those who went into the school system, they managed to get jobs and work in governments and so on, and they became more affluent.

Chip Gruen:

And that legacy of that, I mean, as I understand it, still affects your community today.

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly, the reason why our community is poor, it is because every subsistence community is a poor community. Because subsistence means you only grow what you are able to eat. You don't have savings. You don't have you cannot invest. You know, you all, you are limited to food and which can be affected by weather, because it is not there is no technology. So if, if there is no rain, there is drought, if there is drought, that means people suffer, because they 100% rely on subsistence and nature. So that is how our community is affected. And when I move around, I raise funds for micro credit to allow our people have access to cheaper credit so that they can do something outside of subsistence funding, and that can help our people lead a better life, other than relying entirely on subsistence farming.

Chip Gruen:

So there is a move now, then, and you you have your own schools then...

Gershom Sizomu:

Yes

Chip Gruen:

...right? That that obviously do not require conversion.

Gershom Sizomu:

And the reason why we started them is we wanted to cap and stop the people leaving our community to go to Christian and Muslim schools.

Chip Gruen:

So when you educate the children of your community in your own schools, do they then have good opportunity beyond subsistence farming. Is there enough slack in the economy that they find something to do outside?

Gershom Sizomu:

Actually, other than doing their own businesses, there are no jobs. The jobs are now provided by every like, for instance, we have Christian businesses, Muslim businesses, so every religion protects their businesses, and so you cannot compete with the Muslim if it is a Muslim company providing jobs or Christian company. And so that is the, the reason why we cannot fit within, within the job structures despite our going to school now, yes, so we need to create our own enterprises, employ our people and employ others.

Chip Gruen:

Yes, yeah. So hence the importance of the micro credits and everything, because you all have to be entrepreneurs.

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly, we have to start now. It is difficult. It has many challenges as we start, but when we persist, we will get something in the future.

Chip Gruen:

So one of the things I always like to ask, and I think that there's probably, you could probably give me several answers to this question, is, what am I not thinking about that you think is really important that our listeners who have never heard of this community, right, don't know much about Uganda. What is it that I can't see is an important question that I should be asking you? What do we need to think about that we haven't thought about yet?

Gershom Sizomu:

Actually, you have asked most of the things that very many people ask. But you know, the question of a person, a Ugandan, claiming to be Jewish, is very, very difficult that there are many people who dismiss it. There's no way, and they think it's just a joke. So when somebody sees me with a kippah, when I was in Israel, they would ask me, Are you Ethiopia? Because that's what they know, and I don't look Ethiopian, but people it is another way of saying, How, Why are you wearing a kippah? So there are those questions, and I think that I would invite people to come and visit and experience our community, but also what you are doing right now is an answer to that question, that you are helping masses. I will call them masses because you don't know how many people are going to have access to our voice that you've recorded. And by doing this, you are doing exactly what I need that people can know about my community, so that the questions are not Are you Jewish? Are you Ethiopian? So that people it, it becomes easy for people to know that the a person can be Ugandan and can be Jewish at the same time, even when they don't look like Jewish.

Chip Gruen:

So is this the the purpose of your trip to the to the states, to I mean, are you the public relations officer for your community?

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly. You know, when I speak about my community, like I did today, I am promoting my community to the ears of so many people, so that the questions are not many. And you know, even if I am doing some fundraising, because that is another challenge.

Chip Gruen:

Sure.

Gershom Sizomu:

The ultimate goal is to bring myself and my people to the limelight of of the world, of the Jewish world, so that the Jewish world understands and accepts the fact that there are people who can be Ugandan and Jewish, because we demonstrate it.

Chip Gruen:

So do you think that your best audience, I mean, you said to the Jewish world, right? So you're speaking at the Hillel, you know, and teaching the Jewish students here, you know, this evening. I assume that you speak at synagogues and......Jewish community centers and so forth. Do you also think about or have interactions with NGOs? You know, nonprofit organizations, governmental organizations. Are you, is your community, in contact with the United Nations, for example? I mean, what is the you know? What is the strategy you know, for this ultimate goal of recognition and people to know about you? Is it just through Jewish communities, or is it broader?

Gershom Sizomu:

Yes. Actually, the goal is broader, but we start with the known...

Chip Gruen:

Yeah.

Gershom Sizomu:

...before we go to the unknown. And the known is that being a functional Jewish, religious community. We start with religious institutions and like a Hillel, like synagogues, and that is where I am actually concentrating my efforts now. But the United States Embassy in Uganda recognizes us. And every time they change ambassadors, the ambassadors come to visit our community, or they invite me to go to the embassy and pay a courtesy call and register my presence and answer some questions, because we are registered among the minorities, and there is a department at the American Embassy that protects minorities in like countries that have faced dictatorship before. So that should there be an incident like that of Idi Amin, the embassy weigh in to protect us, and we are so proud of that. We are happy for that.

Chip Gruen:

And so if your first task is coming and introducing yourself to to religious communities, to local Jewish communities, I imagine those doors open pretty easily for you, yes?

Gershom Sizomu:

Exactly. And some of them, the people I went to school with, or they know they have been told about us by people who have interacted with us. Actually, even the governor, the new governor of of of Delaware, has come to our community several times before he became a governor. The first time he was a student, a second year student at Brown University.

Chip Gruen:

Oh, okay.

Gershom Sizomu:

That's he was a 21 years when he came in 1991 So he came to visit, and he has been coming several then he became governor now, now I can say, I can call the governor of Delaware.

Chip Gruen:

That's good! We actually, we have a yearly recognition. The details are not important, but it's we recognize a local community group, and we actually recognized the Jewish Family Services of Delaware a few years ago because they're a big they're big into aid for immigrants. And a lot of Afghani immigrants came through there, and now Ukrainian immigrants. So the Jewish community in Delaware is is quite active. All right. Well. Very good. I'm just so appreciative of you taking the time of sharing your story and your community with us. I hope that this episode gets lots and lots of listeners to help you on your way. Let me just express my thanks and pleasure getting to know you. Thanks for coming.

Gershom Sizomu:

Thank you. I thank you for promoting our voice, our our community. And I would like to thank Eliyah Burg, student and the daughter of Rabbi Daniel and Rabbi Miriam Burg, who are my colleagues and friends, for making sure I come and for inviting me to your studio.

Chip Gruen:

Wonderful. This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise is produced and directed by Christine Flicker. For more information about additional programming, or to make an inquiry about a speaking engagement, please visit our website at religionandculture.com There you'll find our contact information, links to other programming and have the opportunity to support the work of the institute. Please subscribe to ReligionWise, wherever you get your podcasts, we look forward to seeing you next time.