ReligionWise
ReligionWise features educators, researchers, and other professionals discussing their work and the place of religion in the public conversation. Host Chip Gruen, the Director of the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College, facilitates conversations that aim to provide better understanding of varieties of religious expression and their impacts on the human experience. For more about the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding, visit www.religionandculture.com.
ReligionWise
Practice and Performance of Afro-Caribbean Religions - Lilianne Lugo Herrera
On this episode of ReligionWise, scholar Lilianne Lugo Herrera guides us through the vibrant world of Afro-Caribbean religious practice, with a special focus on Cuban traditions. From the intimate spaces of home altars to the dramatic possibilities of theatrical performance, we explore how these sacred traditions continue to pulse through Caribbean cultural life, shaping art, identity, and community across generations.
Today's episode features Lilianne Lugo Herrera, Muhlenberg College who is a professor of Spanish in the cultures department. Her work is particularly interested in Afro like Oshun and Santeria, though, the details of this belief and well known in public discourse about religion, they are changing demographic patterns and the way that information example, you might be familiar with Santeria from a Supreme Florida. Likewise, you might be familiar with the confluence or Virgin Mary in in veneration and practice of South Florida Religious and Cultural Understanding, which produces goals, or two main objectives in its mission statement, one of of this podcast, that is that we are interested in enhancing the we think about religion in public life. The other objective enhancing religious literacy. I think this conversation today simultaneously. There is a need, particularly as these traditions might see about them in media outlets, in popular culture, in diaspora Caribbean populations become larger and larger, I important to understand the belief and practice of these least traditionally been as well represented in our world. We're somebody like Dr. Lugo Herrera with us here at Muhlenberg to to expose our students to a really rich and complicated and how these religions developed from Africa across the Middle Caribbean and then became syncretized and blended with the beliefs and practices that we can see today. The other work that we should pay attention to is that she is also are translated in literature, and in particular in the work as a teacher and a scholar, she also is active in the produced, directed plays that focus on or center these highlighting the stories from these traditions. So I hope you excited to have this conversation, to learn more more about her interest in them, and how she came to study this here. So without further ado, here's our conversation. for coming on ReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Thanks for having me.
Chip Gruen:So I did a little introduction in the beginning heard, and I'm going to give you an opportunity to introduce second. But I want to start off with just getting a taste of a taste of the subject matter, and get you to talk about that, little bit of the biography. So there are a lot of layers to the have. So I want to sort of start generally, and then we can drill religious communities that you're interested in as Afro is a potentially contested category as well. On the fairly self explanatory, but the more you look at it, the more talk about that term, how it's useful, how it's not useful, how
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So the the work that I do is focus on the Caribbean and its diasporas prefer to use the term, for instance, like use the Black religions, since they involve countries that are in the any other country that have also this influence from slaves that slave trade, and they develop a new set of religions, oftentimes or with Catholic saints, and we have this sort of Afro, throughout the Americas. But now also, we live in a world and a practitioners of Santeria, for instance, and they may live in world. So we can also talk about Afro diasporic religions in a religions even. But I still use Afro Caribbean to make this origin and the traditions that this religions still have their to base the geographic region that I'm also interested in, so diasporas.
Chip Gruen:So I want to chase down a couple of those strands But before we get there, I'm going to give you your biography. How did you come to be interested in these training inform the way that you study these materials? I always college professors, you know, we have an arc. We have an origin not always so innocently, but through a complicated history. about about the arc that led you to where you are today?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was born in long ago, 10 years ago, and I did my my bachelor, I did a BFA was born in Santa Clara, which is a city in the middle of the up, Cuba to practice of religion, and Cuba was not, was accepted. So I grew up in a house where there was no whatsoever. And even if my parents had been baptized as practice Catholicism at all. I remember that the first time after 1998 when Pope John Paul the second visit Cuba, and it Christmas was allowed. And suddenly there was it was considered even a holiday. But we didn't celebrate it as a caught a branch of a pine tree and we decorated with some and that was it. So I didn't grew up with with with any sort background, but then I got fascinated by an artist. Her Black Cuban print maker. She died in 1999 she was very young, world that, for me, was fascinating, but I hadn't heard Abakua world. So the Sociedad Secreta Abakua, the religious, kind of a Free Masonry society, all male. It's secret. No women society. And then you have this artist that is trying to get of visual representation for a world that doesn't have one, but view of an outsider. So she read a lot, this artist, Belkis Ayon, and the literature that existed at the time, and she created centered the character, a character named Sikan, which in actually founds the secret. It was a fish she was fishing in in catches this fish called Tanze, that is the representation or God, and the fish speaks to her, and it gives her the secret. And Sikan belongs to, they become more powerful because they have the secret to be disseminated. But according to some versions secret because she tells a story to her husband when she's Her skin is used to make drum, but the drum doesn't work. They drum resonate with the voice of the secret of Tanze. She's they eventually make, managed to make the drum sound with a skin drums work, right with in this many of these religions, but all of this, and the position of this founding character of the any sort of representation, and women are not allowed in society me, that world that she created was fascinating. I started about it. And also, at the time I was in the in the university, someone that it was that came to be initiated in Santeria, so I experience firsthand what their religion was, and to learn so passionate about it, but it was always from a point of view of with these representations, because I was studying theater Belkis Ayon. So. I was always interested in seeing that between how something exists in the world and is practiced by that it's brought to the stage and has a second life in a way. for for some time, I've been doing other things too, but I've many works that incorporate religious Africa, Afro religious
Chip Gruen:So I want to sort of drill down. And I'm not sure if question or if this is sort of a broader cultural question, but these, some of your first interactions with, you know, through the visit of Pope John Paul, and then the celebration heels of that sort of exposure to this esoteric, right, secret follow this one down. But I'm thinking about, right, whether your, you know, developing mind about these ideas, rather, between sort of a mainstream religious practice and that the one hand, that that's an interesting dichotomy to me. On thing that I want us to think about is all of these strands you mentioned. So there's the Catholic strand, there's the comes by way of the slave trade. I'm not sure if there are comes together. So can you talk about the sort of the collision it be personally right or or sort of more generically, for practice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, it's, it's, it's so complicated, about specific deities, and I'm going to put an example with the this is a saint that it has churches built around her, representation that pretty much ties with with any other Mary. But then for Cubans, when we see the Virgin of Charity, which is a goddess from the Yoruba tradition. And according was a great scholar of Caribbean studies, he mentioned that in Charity deity. There's also some elements, especially in the Taino deities call onoho. So we definitely have those different today, I think it's hard to separate them in a way, in the raised as Catholic all their life could because the slaves 19th century, as they couldn't practice their religions, they Catholicism that would allow them to venerate their own gods images. So Oshun is usually depicted as having yellow so we have this virgin that is also dressing yellow clothes. So thing. So for someone that was that grew up being just that other elements of the religion, but certainly today in would say there is much more people practicing Afro Santeria.
Chip Gruen:So as I think, our listeners will recognize that the belief and practice around this category Afro Caribbean. know, you mentioning Santeria, and Oshun, and I'm going to right, that that's a part of this world. So one what is the things? If we go to to Cuba, for example, that we can imagine strands or various syncretisms, where these things are mixed ways. So is this one thing, or is this many things? How do you how do people who practice these traditions think about that know, in their own neighborhood, in their own context?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, it really depends on, on how, on has, right if, if someone grew up being strict Catholic, then just see the depictions of of specific saints in the walls, light a candle as a way of offering, but there, there might religion, even if they are not completely initiated. So we call have made Ocha. But some other people might have an inclination saints, on those in that religion, even if they are not people that have faith in, say, Oshun and Chango, all of these Yoruba and Yemoja Pantheon, they might go to the church and give necessarily just a candle. They might bring, say, specific case, our sunflower, that's the flower that she prefers. They instance, using the depiction of the Virgin of Charity, they offering, like sweets. For instance, she likes, she pretty some anything sweet, honey, etc. So they might use the Catholic offering to Oshun. So someone visiting the island, for are initiators, that are santeros. They are completely year of their religion, and they go to the Catholic Church. they complete in their initiation. So there is so much religions that it's very hard to say, Okay, well, this is, this just pure Santeria, because they are very much ingrained.
Chip Gruen:Okay, so I'm sort of playing this out in my head, that, that traveler and I go to Havana, I'm thinking about church, like I could go to a Catholic Church in Havana, and the Virgin Mary, I might see lit candles that doesn't that also see sweets right in that Catholic Church.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:So it really depends on the churches. churches won't like to see like food in the in the church, but flowers.
Chip Gruen:Okay. Definitely the flowers.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, the sun flowers.
Chip Gruen:And so any space that is, and I know I'm trying boundaries here, but if we were to imagine worship space that would be domestic space, right? That would you we have this in the church. But there might be domestic space that is more a part of these Afro Caribbean practice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yes. So usually the santeros, they they a material form. It's what you call a sopera, like a soup bowl sayings, the representations are mostly stones. But these stones so they need to be covered and and it depending on some people like flowers and sometimes artificial or sometimes natural. other things, even like curtains of the color of the saint, etc. where people keep their saints, those that they received during and most of the time when they have their Saint birthday on the will do like a great party, inviting their religious on The celebration. And you would have great amounts of and definitely some some other religious practices, yeah.
Chip Gruen:So to be clear, there's no if you landed in you know the the church of Oshun, right? Or take me to the is not, there's not ever like a public representation of that, it would be private. The things that are public are are more Catholic, more official religious identity, is that
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:So it really depends, because, for for for Oshun, the Virgin of Charity in Cuba, is going to be It's the eastern part of the country, and I haven't been have like a second floor where they have all sorts of gifts Virgin of Charity. I believe that there is, there is even the and donated to Cuba, and I think it's there. But don't quote me prizes and pictures and many gifts, and in many of those blurry, right? It's blurry. What, what kind of gifts are for or for Oshun, you know what I mean. In Havana, there is the and that that virgin is syncretized with Yemaya or the sea. And this church is in the Bay of Havana. And you will church, many people like fulfilling promises that they also the sanctuary of Saint San Lazaro. Saint Lazarus was was you would see as well, people fulfilling their promises to the some santeros around the area or so there's definitely in some interaction, but in terms of the offering, sometimes, as I said, working in the church would be more hesitant to allow for
Chip Gruen:Yeah. I mean, the reason I'm chasing this down, this is because it seems like there is a dichotomy going on private, between official and unofficial, between I would gender distinction here, hierarchy, marginality, right? of the Catholic, hierarchical, male, empowered, right, sort of dichotomy, whereas the more informal or more, I mean, again, happening on the other side is that, is that a decent read?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yes, absolutely. And I mean, in the Cuba with public space is complicated as well, because of, did not allow for, I mean, to practice any religion or sort of so many people that would openly practice any sort of religion universities, or they would lose their jobs, etc. So it wasn't actually practice that you could conduct in public. So even if Afro Cuban religion, they wouldn't be able to dress in instance, like initiatives in Santeria, they dress in white couldn't do that, because then everybody would notice that religion. But in the last two decades or so, there's been much street, because there has been more there's, it's actually been in terms of gender, there's certainly many tensions in like the one that I was mentioned before, the Sociedad male society. And some other for instance, in Cuba, the Regla de level than that would be to be a Babalaw, who's someone that can for this religion. Women cannot be initiated in Ifa, but more Santeria is much more permissible, so both women and also tensions inside each of the religions regarding gender.
Chip Gruen:So I want to zoom out a little bit, right? We've conversation on Cuban practice. But when we zoom out a little Caribbean generally, obviously there's a really complicated Spanish and Portuguese and French. And I want to get in a these things, how we make categories, and we think, past can affect who's interested and for what reason. So, for people who are who study French and Francophone diaspora interested there, whereas, of course, in Cuba, the Spanish can you talk a little bit about how the category of Afro linguistic and and the distinctions made in the affects, you know, going to school to study these things with silos, right, because of the differences in linguistic
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Absolutely, yeah, it's, it's a question of definitely the need in order to study something fully. Most of understand the language in which this practices are performed. And so I think that now more and more people are even producing the US, and I can mention a couple of examples, but for a studies existed only in the language of each specific area, scholarship around Afro Cuban religions, was produced in scholar in that area, Lydia Cabrera. She came to the US donated all her papers to, for instance, University of Miami, They have their collection there, and now her work has been work "El Monte". It's now fully available in English, but for So there's definitely that lack. So people that wanted to study, and talk to the people there in Spanish as well, in terms of the US. I learned French, for instance, but I did not learn something that has limited my own understanding of Vodou. I Vodou, so I am much more versed in the Hispanic area that and in instance, yeah, I but, but again, there are some scholars transdisciplinary and across languages to to these practices. Portuguese, so there's definitely a crossings of hopefully will be more accessible.
Chip Gruen:Another one of those kind of 20,000 foot questions African of the Afro Caribbean, I think, I mean, I'm no, no even from an outsider's perspective, looking, you know, thinking about cultural productions and so forth, that ethnicity just seem, I mean, those categories are defined encounter those categories, you know, in the in the States. Can that? And is that a, you know, so even hearing you talk about, like, if you look at a snapshot of a neighborhood in Cuba, like a great diversity. Can you help us understand the way that about I mean, you can take Cuba as an example and how that might be what we might be used to in the United States.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, it's a huge difference in Cuba appearance. So people that look white, they would be defined as grandparents are were Black, because it's very much about skin tone, skin, skin tone. And there, there is such a such a in this in the Cuban society. And to be mulatto or mixed race, in Cuba are, right there is there's so much, yeah, so much mixture of the white and the Black, that and I don't see that here in the US, there's this difference of ethnicity and Cuban, but here in the US, I'm a Latino. So there's that, there's are in terms of race in a culture and what you are and how race and ethnicity in a do in a different country, that is very going back to the religions, one thing that I do love about this, diasporic religionis that once you get into one of these doesn't matter. You are part of the clan, and of course, the a white person, doing, you know, brujeria, witchcraft and as a doesn't mean that you are not accepted into that clan. And US, Aiesha Beliso-De Jesus, that actually she argues that through initiation, practitioners adopt a Black They are not impersonating a race. They are not Black, right? that Black epistemology. And I think that's really interesting these religions create their own sort of acceptance and community Black or being white or being mulatto.
Chip Gruen:So I want to go back to something else that you because you come to this as you had have described, through the productions. So I say other cultural productions, because something that people do, right? It's a cultural production, but things that people do, and so these things bump up against one mean, you've mentioned a little bit about the theater here, but about your work and representation of these maybe, maybe even both representation and got to think that that's a that's a big part of it as well.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, the work that I analyze is usually that is decent, and I prefer to focus on that there are many, misrepresentation of all sorts of Afro diasporic religions in try to analyze the sort of representation that allow us not practice, but also to think through societal, societal diversity and many different issues, and also that many of more visibility towards wider audiences for these practices, playwrights that I studied, and Cuban playwrights, Eugenio Fernandez Santana, they try to bring the myths that the origin and tell stories through them, which is something that we have Greek myths. And they are now these pillars of society. But come from the oral tradition of these religions that people do really interesting, and they can tell us a lot about human people, as people in a society, in a couple and and, and they strategies of telling this, the myths, Black diasporic religions has been present in dance in theater, and they have great emotional states. And also, there's so much in the rhythm of There's also the another religious trend that I didn't which is practiced in the Hispanic Caribbean and Cuba. And connect us to the dead, and and that it's very powerful too, think through the invisible, right, or through what it's we interact with this, with presences that we that were with anymore, where they went, what happened with that spirituality So in the theater, we also get to to process our grief in some ways of thinking through through pain and death.
Chip Gruen:So when we're thinking about these playwrights intended audience for these works? Is it meant to translate linguistically, but translate these experiences, these, this, outside audience, or is it intended to be a mirror to the recognize? And it's sort of making something, you know, the raw material of their traditions that they're proud that affects the production greatly, thinking about, you
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Absolutely, and it really depends. I am article on three playwrights that depict in different ways their works. And one production was the playwright is called is called "Mare Nostrum", "Our Sea" though it was translated as years ago here in the US, um. And in that play, for instance, the middle of the sea. They are trying to escape a country that might be Cuba, and they might be trying to get to the US. But that could be relatable to many people, and there are many. Virgin appears and talks to them. And some people that know Charity and Oshun, they will recognize some signposts there recognized. But some other people might watch this these are three women that are lost in the sea and they are to return to go ahead, and how to survive with the little food decision of what to do, there's another play that I studied by maker here in the US of Cuban origin. But she has, she has of her life, Carmelita Tropicana, that's her stage which we have an apparition of the Virgin that is actually language. So it's, it's, it's doing, it's, it's playful, it's It's not going to be interpreted as only one saying from one interpreted as a powerful religious personification of intervening in that specific moment of the action. So and beauty of theater, that one thing can be many things for the and the way that the playwrights, directors, actors make a point about religion itself, but to use religion as the lives of the characters.
Chip Gruen:So we've been talking a little bit about, you diaspora communities in the US. I mean, obviously the Cuban the Cuban American community, excuse me, in South Florida is one, and that's not the only place. And I'm thinking about of religious diversity and how these Afro Caribbean religious example, if people know of Santeria at all, they might know in a Hialeah, Florida, for example, or I don't know, I how do you see the integration of this rich tapestry of more and more visible in American life, how do you see different than it was 10 years ago? Where do you see it going? you know, how do you see these traditions sort of being a part of the larger religious life of the country?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:That's a really interesting question. I I've been living here in the Northeast for my second year. So know about the US yet. And I think that even though there is, diversity and more more public conversation about diversity. At the last years, there's also a big push back towards ideas of or a more polarized view about what is right and religions, they have ideas of what is right or is wrong that black and white. They are they there are many shades in there. am not sure that. That more and more people will understand what there is much more public conversation about what these practicants look like and what's what's their worldview, there's these things, these topics. Yeah, but, but, and I wanted to attempts to give more visibility to to these religions and to diversity do exist already, even if it's not entirely visible certain areas of the political discourse. And this is a book Tsang. It's called, "Spirited Diasporas, Personal Narratives Afro-Atlantic Religions". And it has first person testimonies of world, but here in the US, I was very surprised to know about in Boston and Regla de Ocha Santeria communities in Chicago, in the US, and many of the people that do these testimonies geographical region. Say they're, they have, do not have They are Americans, or they are British, or, you know, they're, the world that do not have a personal ethnical or origin to they are attracted to them because of their because of terms of gender and sexuality and how many of these religions being that it's not tied to this heteronormative paradigm of long, long answer, short, I do think there is, there is hope these religions. And I think this, many of these communities time, we need, we need to do more.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, so I'm something that you and I in the going to do a little commercial here, because we do on campus. and we do on campus the WorldViews program, which about their own religious experiences, to to enhance And if you're out there and you're within shouting distance want to come and talk about Santeria or or Oshun, or any of always looking for a Rastafarian to come on, or somebody from whatever. I absolutely agree, like this is something that it's hard for somebody like me to tap into those communities know, trusting enough right to have to have their worldview but I think it's, it's good for everybody, it's good for the better level of acceptance. And it's and it's good for us, understand our world better so, so reach out to us at our at our religionandculture.com and find the information where you can get you on WorldViews. So the question I always like to finish try to be really aware of my own myopia, that I come up with about, but I'm always really aware that there might be talking about that, that you would leave today and you would that he didn't ask about X, right? So what is the thing that think you know our listeners really need to know about? When, when thinking about these Afro Caribbean traditions?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I offered two times a class on this topics. And the first time Witchcraft". And here for because the amount of characters it to "Brujeria and Latin American Cultures". There is depiction of many of these religions, or the religions in the media, there tends to be this notion that that there's some sort of evil related to these practices. And witchcraft processes that many women were subjected to through diasporic practices, and how many times they have been and tied to ideas of obscurantism and the devil, and religions. They are religions that center in the well being of they care about love and and they have a great wisdom that to generations through oral stories. And those are that that hopefully more people would would get interested in. questions about this religions. The people that practice them they just want a better life for themselves and for their
Chip Gruen:All right. Well, I think that's a great place to thank you so much for being on ReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera:It's been a pleasure. Thank you Chip.
Chip Gruen:This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise Christine Flicker. For more information about additional inquiry about a speaking engagement, please visit our religionandculture.com There, you'll find our contact programming and have the opportunity to support the work subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. next time.