ReligionWise

Varieties of African Religious Experience - Falres Ilomo

• Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding • Season 2 • Episode 10

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This episode of ReligionWise features Rev. Dr. Falres Ilomo, Chair of the Faculty of Theology at the University of Iringa, Tanzania. Dr. Ilomo's work considers the intersections of traditional African religious systems with Christianity in Africa, as well as the history and development of Christianity in Tanzania and the surrounding region. In this conversation, we discuss the perceptions and realities of the varieties of religious expression in Africa and consider several aspects of the belief and practice of the Christian tradition in Tanzania.

Show Notes:

Chip Gruen:

Welcome to ReligionWise the podcast where we feature educators, researchers and other professionals discussing topics on religion and their relevance to the public conversation. My name is Chip Gruen. I'm the director of the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding at Muhlenberg College, and I will be the host for this podcast. In this season two of ReligionWise, we will continue to consider a broad variety of religious and cultural beliefs and practices, and try to understand their place in the contemporary conversation. If you like what you hear, I encourage you to explore the 12 episodes from season one that are available in your favorite podcast app. Also, we would love to hear from you with your questions, comments, or suggestions for future episodes. To reach us, please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There you will find our contact information and also have the opportunity to support this podcast and the work of the Institute. Today's conversation features Dr. Falres Ilomo, chair of the Faculty of Theology at the University of Iringa in Tanzania. This episode is actually the result of some serendipity. As Dr. Ilomo and his wife, Flora were on a tour of the Northeast Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which was arranged by the Reverend Dr. Carl Filer, who I owe great thanks for connecting us. As a part of their tour of our region, they came to Muhlenberg College, which is associated with the ELCA. It also gave us the opportunity to do a first which was record an episode, live face to face on two sides of the same table. So it was a great pleasure to welcome the Ilomo's here in person. So Dr. Ilomo's work is endlessly fascinating for a number of reasons. Being interested in Christianity in Sub Saharan Africa, as well as African religious traditions from Sub Saharan Africa, Dr. Ilomo can speak to a number of different aspects of the religious diversity of that part of the world and the complicated relationships that follow. Dr. Ilomo is widely published a number of books and articles that form the basis of our conversation today, which we have included links to in the show notes. One of the reasons I enjoyed this conversation so much was because it really pushed me out of sort of the standard ways in which I think about the Christian tradition, the history of Christianity that are informed by American and European sensibilities, talking to Dr. Ilomo and hearing his perspective on the colonial past the idea that Christianity represents a secondary religion, to the parts of Africa he's discussing the role of the German heritage and the German Lutheran Church in Tanzania. It's just really interesting to see his perspective, in particular, his project that really seeks to get people to take indigenous African religion seriously. And that includes not only people in the United States and in Europe, but also people from the Lutheran Church in Tanzania, or in Sub Saharan Africa generally. I find his claim that the synergy or the additive nature of Christianity to previously existing indigenous traditions among some of these social groups to be a really interesting point that has a lot of interesting implications. One of the only ways that people have thought about contemporary African Christianity has been when there have been intra denominational conversations, for example, in the Lutheran Church or in the Episcopal Church, about gender and sexuality in particular, one of the things we often hear is about the very conservative nature of social dynamics of those churches in Sub Saharan Africa. It's an interesting question, to think about the ways in which the social and cultural milieu of those churches affects the way that they see Christian ethics, Christian practice, and the possibility of common ground on some of those issues. Suffice it to say the African context of Dr. Ilomo's comments is both refreshing and adds a tremendous new perspective on how we think about some of those issues. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Ilomo, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Well, thank you for coming on ReligionWise. We really appreciate it.

Falres Ilomo:

Thank you very much.

Chip Gruen:

So as you mentioned, a lot of your work is in African religion and thinking about African religion. And I want to start actually, by asking you about that category because of course, Africa is huge, and there's a lot of cultural and linguistic and political difference. So what is it that holds that category together for you? What are some of the characteristics that you mean when you talk about African religion?

Falres Ilomo:

Okay, when I talk about African religion is about some part of Africa is not the whole of Africa, as other Western scholars, they have categorized, categorized Africa, in various regions or zones. There is a European zone. This is Morocco, Tunisia, they call European Africa. And another one is called Asian Africa. This is Eritrea, Somalia, Djibouti, but the rest of Africa, southern of Sahara is similar. So this is what I mean, I don't include the European and Asian Africa. So it is down to South Africa. And this is having similar way of worshipping God or practicing traditional culture, although there are slight differences.

Chip Gruen:

So I think I'll be the first to admit that I'm ignorant of those indigenous traditions. So what are the things that are similar there? I know you talk, for example, about reverence for forebears, for example, what are some of the things that hold African religions or sub Saharan African religions together?

Falres Ilomo:

Yes, what holds together is the basis of their religion is forebears, which many scholars call ancestors, but ancestor is not similar with a forebear, because ancestor is a family member, which starts from fifth generations onwards, this is not part of the family. But forebear is forever a part of a family. So ancestor is a Western terminology. As for Africans, we call forebear.

Chip Gruen:

And then the conception of the conception of God, which I think ends up being an interesting part of your argument that we'll talk about later with inter religious dialogue. So what is the conception of deity or of God in those African traditions?

Falres Ilomo:

Okay, this African religion has a concept of God. High God. Of course, many scholars think that the Africans have no concept of God. Even missionaries, when it came to Africa, they spend a lot of time explaining about God. Although the issue in Africa was Jesus, Jesus was really an issue. But God was not an issue. They have a concept of God, and every tribe or community has a name for Supreme God. But this God is approached through forebears, so forebears the dead members, of course in Africa, we don't call them dead, they will call departed members from this world to the other world. And the other world, the oh, what we call Western call heaven, is under the ground, nederlands, in western or in Jewish culture, under the earth is hell has a negative perspective. But in Africa, it has positive aspect. So forebearers are the ones who have died in a decent way. This, they're like African saints, although the Westerners call them devils, or they have negative or go God, but for Africans they are saints. They mediate between the living members and the God.

Chip Gruen:

So I want to keep going with that point. In a paper you presented entitled,"Cultural and Natural Heritage in Tanzania, A Case of Southern Highlands," you deal specifically with some of the early missionary activity in Tanzania, specifically by two different German groups in the south missionaries from Berlin, and in the north missionaries from the Leipzig Mission Society. And so you argue that there are different attitudes towards African religion to this day in different regions, based on different attitudes towards the indigenous traditions by those groups. Can you talk about how those distinctions and how that attitude that negative attitude towards African religion plays out of some of that missionary history?

Falres Ilomo:

Oh, yes, these two mission societies, although they come from German, but Leipzig Mission Society has a different importance on the African worldview. They were former missionaries in India, and they experienced caste system. And they found that that system in India was was a hindrance for mission work. But when they came to Tanzania, they found that the culture is very rich, and very good. They compared it with a fertile soil. They said if you utilize African culture, in northern part, it can be effective to missionary work. So they incorporated African culture when doing mission. And this they incorporated also the idea of forebears to God. They said the offering you're giving to God, your ancestors are also sharing with your God. And the people in northern part, especially Chagga people in Moshi. They were very happy. They found that this religion is plays an additive role is not a replacement from their former religion. But on the side of Berlin Mission Society. This first of all, the missionaries were not university graduates. They went to, I think, elementary school. And they were more like, evangelist or theologians with you know, higher education. So their approach in the mission was conservative. And they didn't want to, to incorporate the cultural perspective into Christianity. So they preached about God as a holy God, who is not willing to to intermingle with the other, other other devil culture, so African culture for them, was like, satanic culture. And one case in my book, I explained that a preacher, African preacher was teaching catechumens, about the ten commandments. And when he was teaching the first command, Lord, you are God, You shall not have other gods. So the catechumens asked him, Who are other gods, the evangelist had no answer. He went 60 kilometres on foot to a missionary to ask. So, the missionary told him, what is your what is your answer? He said, I think the other gods are the earthly properties. If one depends on the earthly property is worshipping other gods, the missionary say no wrong. The other gods are the forebears. But the evangelist didn't understand this. It was he couldn't imagine. So this is how the Berlin missionaries took African culture and forebears as a satanic worship. So in the Mission Society mission stations, different from Leipzig Mission Society, they established the mission estates. So they had the boundaries. So wherever lives lives, there must be a Christian. And if he commits sin Oh, we have contracted to mission 20 regressions to be followed. Then he is expelled from a missions center because the Berlin mission...missionaries believed that God or Jesus will come imminently to judge the world. So it's better for newly converted Christians to live in a special area, so that they cannot be contaminated with the sinful pagans. And if somebody is expelled, then his house is destroyed, the crops destroyed. So this was the system.

Chip Gruen:

Wow. Wow. So, and you argue and I think, convincingly from these roots of these, these, these competing mission societies that, you know, to this day, African religions have tended not to be taken seriously or not even imagined as religions that they're, they're superstition, or satanic or what have you. That practices are considered witchcraft. fetishistic, barbaric. These are words that you use in your writing to describe the perception of African religions. I should also note here, though, and maybe this is a topic for another time, that you mentioned something of a thaw right after Vatican II, particularly within Catholicism about an opening up of taking religion seriously. But we'll leave that for maybe another time. But many interpreters see this simply as a matter of racism and colonialism. But you provide some structural reasons as well, some things about African religious systems that might contribute to that, that understanding, can you talk about those structural characteristics? So for example, the lack of hierarchical organization that lead to this judgment of African religion as as not really religion, or at least not a religion that can be recognized by some of these missionary groups.

Falres Ilomo:

Yes. The western people thought that this is not a religion, because it has no, no, it's not an institutional religion. African religion is a religion of practice, not a confession, but they practice their religion, you can see through practice. But, of course, the concept of God is still there. And the concept of family, that the family is the living members and the departed members. So the relationship continues, even after death. They take them not as a dead person, but as members who have been transferred to another world, and they're still having relationship, and they're the guardian of the community, and cultural practices. But this issue of the issue of why African religion was not respected or taken as religion, I think he was part of historical reality. Christianity was introduced in Africa, the same time when colonialism came, and it is the Church, which invited colonialism in Africa, in Tanzania, for example. So, colonialism, could not like, religion, culture, of course, the culture is something which is very good for is a foundation of when a community, but people without culture is easy to, to, to mold them whatever way you want. So I think the missionaries in the colonial system had a similar agenda. In fact, Berlin, Berlin Mission Society was worked closely with colonial system in Tanzania. So I think they needed to purpose, they knew that you have to conserve every region, but they needed to purposely to make Africans easy to be colonized.

Chip Gruen:

It's also interesting to think about, you know, definitions of religion too, so that, you know, there is no scripture, for example, which, you know, if your definition of religion hinges on scripture, or there is no, I mean, there might be leaders in the local community, but they're not priests or bishops in the same way that you might expect. You know, thinking about those kinds of structures. So it's interesting that those that institutionalization, as you say, become sort of a, if you don't have institution, you don't have culture, the kind of the judgment, the sort of prejudice that's built into that as well. So I can see to sort of move from those the past to how your work interacts with contemporary understanding relationship between Tanzania and Christianity and African religions, for example, that I can see two different goals in your work. One is to convince the public or African Christians or Christians outside of Africa, to take African religion more seriously and as a religious tradition that is worthy of being understood. So that I think that's one and two, to work out a model of missionary activity that provides a non colonial means of dialogue. So first, am I being fair to you? Would you say that those are two of the goals of your work? And then second, how do those two goals either work with one another, or work in opposite directions? I think that they're, they're clearly not the same thing. So how do they relate to one another?

Falres Ilomo:

Okay, if I forget one, remind me. I think one goal, to bring or to teach to revive

Chip Gruen:

Yes. Christianity in Africa, so that it can be rooted in African soil, not in the western culture. We don't need a Christmas tree from Europe. We have trees in Africa, Christmas tree, or the Germans called Tanenbaum. Tanenbaum, we have a lot of sacred trees in Africa, we can take one with and use them in during Christmas time. So those things should be Christianity should be understood in African culture, and the context. I think we still have legacy of missionary work in Africa, in Tanzania specifically. For the time being, we are following legacy for missionaries. If a man a polygamist comes to the church, with his 10 wives, and a 100 children, he wants to be baptized. The church in Africa follows the rigorous tradition from missionaries, they said, you know, we want one man, one wife, this is I think we are lacking. We cannot reflect our theological understanding. I think, let us go to Jesus, if people a man with the five, ten, wives, and several children could go to Jesus could easily say I want one person. I think he could say Come as you are. And we'll see also in western perspective, if a person comes to the church, to be baptized, he said, says I have one hundred cars, twenty houses can one say we want you to remain with the one house one car. This is a symbol of prosperity in a Western perspective. But in Africa, the symbol of prosperity is human beings. So let us take this thing as a sociological issue. Not really. Yes. So I think the basis of belief in a belief of baptism, should be a belief in Jesus Christ, not in the cultural aspect, let us leave culture and base it on a belief in Christianity. So I'm going off off my script of what I planned to talk about but this is interesting to me. So the other what you term secondary religious tradition, in Tanzania is Islam.

Falres Ilomo:

And Christianity.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah. So Islam and Christianity, and I know Islam isn't your specialty, but it just occurs to me that the Islamic tradition is very interested in incorporating local culture into into the religious tradition. You have to be Orthodox, of course, but then beyond that, do you feel like in Tanzania, I mean, does Christianity have something to learn from Islam there? Do they do a better job at this incorporation then then contemporary Christianity does?

Falres Ilomo:

In some way, for example, the, the incorporate polygamist. They allowed to to be converted to Islam. But I don't think if there are many things, because Muslims call Africans traditionalist kafr, people without religion. Christianity call African followers is pagans. And pagan is paganos means they will people will live outside the kind of the town town of Rome. So has nothing to do with Christianity. But these are prejudices which Islam and Christianity have towards African religious followers.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, so it's more of a shared the secondary tradition share...

Falres Ilomo:

Secondary is proud that they feel superior to African for us. So about Yeah, maybe dialog interfaith dialogue?

Chip Gruen:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Falres Ilomo:

I feel that secondary followers Christianity and Islam came later. And they were hosted by Africans, the Africans gave them land to establish the institutions. And they were a good host. But this Islam and the Christians are fighting to the host's community, fighting each other. But they don't involve the host in their fighting. The just see to themselves and they discus. So I think there is no interfaith dialogue. This is a solving of crisis between two religions, foreign religions, so, African, African traditionalist have something to contribute to the secondary religious experiences. I think they will they have something to learn from them. The Africans have never have a conflict of sacred worshiping areas, ever every family has a worshiping area, no conflict with each other. This is a new experience from Western religions, where we find two religions fighting each other.

Chip Gruen:

So, what are the goals? I mean, so you, you, you like this term, I think interfaith dialogue and want to make the argument that the African religious traditions and African Christianity in particular have more to offer to that conversation that is traditionally been accepted, what what should the goals be or what are the goals of that dialogue? How does it function or how should it function in the community?

Falres Ilomo:

This dialogue, I have proposed in my writings that it should be different one from the Western type of dialogue. This should be to borrow the terminology from Professor Sundermeier, Theo Sundermeier from Heidelberg University, he says convivence, convivence in German, but in in English convivial dialogue, the dialogue of living together. So I think this is a good thing to learn. If, if you follow western type of dialogue people sit in a round table, they discuss their academicians. But this convivial dialogue or dialogue of living together, whereby all religions are included, is in our dialogue of relationship in the communities where people live, and this can bring peace, not dialogue only for scholars, this is a dialogue in the basis in the grassroot. So I encourage that this type of dialogue is relevant to African context, because it is based on the grassroot.

Chip Gruen:

So when we say dialogue, I mean, obviously the word implies conversation right both to and conversation, but it sounds like you're describing something that is maybe not even verbal, right? Not necessarily about conversation, but this living together is action oriented? Is...help me understand, is it only practical or is it practical as well as verbal?

Falres Ilomo:

Is practical as well as verbal, you greet each other, you invite each other to a location, and there is talking. But if an African a practitioner invites Christians, they say no, cannot come, still they want to preach them. What kind of Jesus is that? So the Africans cannot understand. So for Africans dialogue of living together is a practical, you make you you bridge the gap, or you narrow the gap. So, people or Africans can trust that, oh, let us listen to what the person is. The message is telling us and for Africans, they need secondary religious experience as an addition, not a replacement. Although the missionaries thought Christianity was a replacement, but for Africans is in addition, it plays additive role.

Chip Gruen:

You know, I study very early Christianity, and I argue to my class in New Testament a lot, although I've not I love your words here about it being additive, that I imagine that there are lots of people who follow traditional religion in Rome, who viewed Christianity as additive to their, quote, unquote, pagan practice, as well. And of course, the church fathers have no time for that at all. Those aren't the people that come come down to us. So, um, on that interfaith dialogue, and you can tell me that this is the the wrong question. But I think the way that it's traditionally practiced, is looking for similarity. You know, I talk to you, and we are going to find things that we agree about. But hearing your description of African religion, traditional African practice, it sounds like an emphasis on difference might be as helpful, right? How are we different and how do we understand those differences? Rather than just thinking about similarities about conceptions of God, for example. What do you think, is the goal here to seek similarity or to seek difference?

Falres Ilomo:

I think the goal can be both to seek differences and to seek similarities. But I think similarities are more. Yeah, maybe we, I mean, we read the we understand the Bible wrongly. But there is a lot of parallelism between the African belief and Christianity, especially in the Old Testament. But New Testament was written in Europe, with the European context. But the Old Testament is very similar to African way of life.

Chip Gruen:

So I'm gonna follow up on this. So I very much enjoyed reading another paper,"Interfaith Dialogue in an African Context," in which you make a number of observations and suggestions for a way forward of this of this interfaith dialogue. And in your analysis, there are a number of social and cultural differences that stand out that I'd love to hear you talk more about. So one of them being a personal versus a communal eschatology. Can you explain what you mean by that and how there's a difference in perspective there?

Falres Ilomo:

Okay. Communal eschatology is that this resembles to African community life, even after life here after is viewed by Africans as communal life. People live there as a community and for Africans, individual life even if you face good life is not a good thing. But community life is very much preferred by Africans. But this Christian worldview, especially from conservative theologians, which talk about exclusive eschatology. Few people are going to inherit the kingdom of God majority are going to hell, this has no attraction to African perspective, when the view or the hear such a teaching, they're not attracted by such a teaching. But I think the problem is that missionaries in the back home, they had the idea of inclusive eschatology. But for Africa they had exclusive. This is the have you read my journal article about songs, hymns translated by Berlin missionaries?

Chip Gruen:

No, I haven't had a chance to see that.

Falres Ilomo:

This is the problem. And even the Germans call, eschatology they call day of judgment they call sousalmung bringen means the day of collecting all people, gathering all people. But in Africa, I have proposed that the day of eschatology should be the day of reconciliation, not a day of judgment, which is tribunal perception for Africa, or we call adversarial justice. But I prefer restorative justice. If Jesus comes in the last day, is the one who appeared[inaudible]. And we know[inaudible] is the turning point. But if he comes as a magistrate, we have bad experience about magistrate in Africa.

Chip Gruen:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this also connects then to the idea of personal wrongdoing, I mean, what's called in the Christian tradition sin, right, but that is can you argue for that to be conceived of differently as well, in the African Christian context?

Falres Ilomo:

In Africa, we have an idea of collective, either collective punishment, or collective correcting a person offender on behalf of the whole community. Because when he does an offense, it is offense for the whole community. So even eschatological perspective for Africans, is, collective. They see it in a collective way.

Chip Gruen:

And this seems also connected to the next dichotomy I want to ask you about is a European sense of legalism, as opposed to hospitality, particularly around I think you mentioned in ritual or in offering. Can you talk about hospitality in this African context, as well?

Falres Ilomo:

Hospitality in Africa is part of cultural practice and also religious. Three years ago, we went to a shrine, a [inaudible], traditional [inaudible], professors from University of Iringa. And when we arrived there, they knew me, of course, they invited us, they had food drinks, they gave us and they say, this is a symbol that even our offering today has been accepted by God. So, they have a sense of ecumenism or hospitality is part of their

Chip Gruen:

And I could imagine a reinterpretation or a more religion. And if travelers have come across with a religious practice, then the people there are happy. They say, Oh, our, our offering has been accepted by God. So hospitality for Africa is, is a duty is an is an obligation. Not a free will is a duty. You have to do it because it's part of practice and also the religious aspect. African interpretation of Eucharist or communion, say based on that understanding as well.

Falres Ilomo:

It is strange because the Holy Communion for Christians is for members only. It's strange. But for African communal meal, can be shared by anybody, a foreigner, a passerby without asking a belief. So I think communal meal has corporate aspect, but the Holy Communion in Christianity is strange and even the missionary I asked the people that the one who think he is clean should come here. So it is mysterious aspect, is a mystery. Yeah, so for Africans is not a, it's just a ritual, which is not understood.

Chip Gruen:

I want to follow up on something else. So you have those things that need to be understood or recognized or the differences understood better. And on the other hand, you urge both the public and Christians to understand African religions better. And we've mentioned these a little bit, the role of the forebears that we talked about and the you know, that there is a way of translating that into saints, right, that that's not a totally foreign concept. There's another in I might have taken this out of context, because this doesn't sort of isn't totally in line with what I think I've heard you say that. But you say, "African religion followers should avoid the following - to think that if they accept Christianity, they can practice both religions concurrently." That seems to me at odds with the idea that you can view as an African religious practitioner Christianity as additive. So what is the relationship between between those two statements?

Falres Ilomo:

I think, yeah, I mean, they can take some elements, enrichment, but to continue being dual practitioner is is not necessary. It can, if they have accepted Christianity, and if some good elements or worthwhile element elements to be preserved, they are incorporated. They needed to be Christians, followers, but if they go to worship in the church, they go to a shrine, I think this is...No, no, no, sense they can take one, one thing. But for me, element from African can be incorporated. But worship, a person should be a worshiper of one religion.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, when I was reading your work, I kept thinking, and this is from a different part of Africa, from North Africa, what you refer to as European Africa. But thinking about Augustine of Hippo and his, his mother, Monica, and when they move to Milan, that Monica is caught feeding the dead, you know, taking offerings to the dead, of food offerings and Ambrose of Milan, the bishop, scolding her and it just it really that relationship and the way that Augustine thinks about the old I think he was embarrassed for his mom a little bit of this, but that taking the the primary religious tradition, if you will, and melding it with the second, it just really resonated that that's, that's been something that's been going on for a very, very long time.

Falres Ilomo:

Yes.

Chip Gruen:

Finally, I really like to talk to you about the relationship between the Lutheran Church of Tanzania and other Lutheran denominations worldwide. It's no secret that many Protestant groups and Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc, have faced division over conflict about social issues, particularly around sex and gender. And I think this is one of the major talking points, you know, about, I mean for example, the Episcopal Church in Europe and United States versus the Episcopal Church in Africa. How can thinking about the African context for African Christianity help us understand that division better? Is there a way forward to think about reconciling around some of those social issues that seem to be so big in a number of different particularly Protestant denominations?

Falres Ilomo:

Okay, so I can tell you my state my understanding, oh, my view? I think we call Christianity in world

Chip Gruen:

Yes. Christianity. This means Christianity in different ports in Africa and Asia, in Europe in America. On my side, I think let us respect the port from a specificly context. To say to criticize and say you are wrong, I think is not we are too much. Let us respect what are the others have seen as something. But I think Europeans and Americans also they have respect to respect African perspective, I think the weakness on our part is that we are discussing this issue of sexuality in a negative way, or we don't discuss it too deeply, we just say, Oh, we don't like, let the discussion take place. People should discuss and give answers. And the contribute that oh, you American partners on this issue we live with you this point and this and this. But don't say we don't want to speak with you. We don't want partnership. I think this is too extreme. And also, our way is African church. We have to reflect Christianity, not to be conservative. The missionaries taught us Christianity, but it has to grow up. We must be continue making research and reflecting to our context, but I think we are not capable of participating in dialogue in the West, because in our church, we have no progress. If polygamy system is a big problem to us, how can we discuss the issue of homosexuality is too remote for us. So I, I advise fellow Africans, to try to reflect Christianity in our context. And also respect the other context what today, they discussed. We are not the truth. We are part of Christianity in this world. So we have our contribution, but we are not the one who can judge other people's decision. But I think in Europe and America, you have time to discuss issues, social issues, and scholarship in western world is inside the church. So you let scholars discuss the theological issues. But in Africa, maybe it is administrative issue. Bishops give the standpoint of the church, I think relate to them, as a Christian scholars discuss the matters, especially our own social problems, let us discuss them not leaving them saying that, Oh, the missionary forbid, this. No, it's the time now to give answers. New answers to the old questions. Not old answers to the old questions, or new, new new questions. Yes. Have I answered... Yeah, I'm thinking it's very interesting to me, because as I've as I've been preparing to talk to you, I've been, you know, thinking about how much are these conservative social ideas rooted in sort of traditional African religious ideas? And how much are they coming from, I mean, what's you seem to be saying is that they're coming from the echoes of 150 years ago, missionaries, and that that teaching has stuck, rather than being something that is sort of rooted in sub Saharan African culture.

Falres Ilomo:

Yes. And also the issue of sexuality, for example, homosexual. We can go we can think about the context more. The issue of marriage in the western world is a individual issue. And there is for recreation for it's not a it's not succession. For Africa, it's not individual issue is a community family issue. So you you are expert after marriage, you are expected to have a child. Here, no, is a decision personal decision. So practice of homosexual for Africa seems strange, because it prohibits procreation. So for them, they don't think is unthinkable to allow such a practice. But I think the Western world has their own way of taking their things according to their context. Because here, children...having children is not an issue. Marriage can be for contract. Divorce is something which acceptable of which I say, there is no need of living as a couple when you have no relationship, once a relationship was broken, of course, people have a right to separate each other. But for Africa issue of marriage is a family issue is not individual.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, that seems to go back to some of those ideas about the personal versus the communal that are so you know, you've talked about some, you know, so instrumental in, in your work of understanding African Christianity and its differences. So here's my one of my last questions I always like to ask is, What am I leaving out? Like, what have we not talked about? What are some of the issues that face either the Lutheran Church in in Tanzania, or Christianity in Sub Saharan Africa generally, like, what am I ignoring? What am I sort of not seeing that is really important for us to think about a little bit?

Falres Ilomo:

I think you are not considering African situation, especially the way you're witnessing faith. Witnessing faith in Africa is for all people, pastors and church members. So everybody is engaged in a mission, although we have weaknesses, but on that matter, the church in Africa grows fast, because it is involving all people. And nobody is left behind. Young people are very much active. So we have I mean, we have we are optimistic about the church growth, because young people are involved. But if the church is spread by old people, young people are not participating. I think this is there is a danger of the church growth, risk. So I think, in the western part, you can you have something to learn from Africa, how we witness our faith, how we worship. I think there is something to learn. But also in partnership, for example, universities in the west America and Europe take serious about African Studies. Don't let a professor visit Africa for two weeks, and they come see is an expert of African Studies. So let the African come here and teach American students let them hear from an African scholar. Ask questions. This can be a good way of exchanging knowledge or scholarship. But you know I think even the curriculum in America and Europe, African Studies is something not important. If you don't study something, how can you facilitate partnership? How can you understand people? Obvious you can understand, wrongly. So last year, I went to German in anthropology department, I was teaching there they said we want to hear from an African. And really, we had a good time.

Chip Gruen:

Very good. Well, I hope that this conversation reaches a lot of listeners ears and is the first step in hearing from an African talking about African religion and African Christianity. So I want to thank you very much for taking the time to sit down with me. It's been great.

Falres Ilomo:

With pleasure, thank you very much.

Chip Gruen:

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