Beyond the Headlines - The Fall of Kabul - Matthieu Aikins

Today’s episode features Matthieu Aikins, an award winning journalist and reporter who covered the war in Afghanistan and the subsequent refugee crisis.

In this conversation, we consider both his reporting from Kabul after the fall of the Afghan government as well as the plight of refugees as they flee the country and the Taliban. 

Show notes:

• Matthieu Aikins' website (https://maikins.com/)
• The Naked Don't Fear the Water (https://maikins.com/book)
• Matthieu Aikins' articles (https://longform.org/archive/writers/matthieu-aikins)

Transcript

Chip Gruen: 0:03

Welcome to ReligionWise the podcast where we feature educators, researchers and other professionals discussing topics on religion and their relevance to the public conversation. My name is Chip Gruen. I'm the Director of the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding at Muhlenberg College, and I will be the host for this podcast. In this season two of ReligionWise, we will continue to consider a broad variety of religious and cultural beliefs and practices, and try to understand their place in the contemporary conversation. If you like what you hear, I encourage you to explore the 12 episodes from season one that are available in your favorite podcast app. Also, we would love to hear from you with your questions, comments, or suggestions for future episodes. To reach us, please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There you will find our contact information and also have the opportunity to support this podcast and the work of the Institute. Today's conversation features Matthew Aikens, an author and reporter who has covered both Afghanistan and the Middle East since 2008. His work has appeared in The New York Times, Harper's the Atlantic, The New Yorker and Rolling Stone magazine, Aikins received the 2022 Pulitzer Prize for international reporting as part of a New York Times team that investigated civilian casualties from US airstrikes. The video investigation that he and his colleagues produced also won two Emmy Awards. He has also received the National Magazine, Polk and Livingston awards. His debut book, "The Naked Don't Fear the Water", which was published by HarperCollins in 2022, tells the stories of Afghan refugees as they flee Afghanistan traveling over land towards Europe. His reporting for the book comes from his own experience, accompanying his Afghan friend as he heads westward, encountering both help and hindrance towards what he hopes will be a better life. I would also like to highlight his reporting about the fall of Kabul. As a freelancer, he was able to stay in the country when most other journalists were recalled by their editors. I would recommend his piece that appeared in The Times on December 10, entitled, "Inside the Fall of Kabul", which gives a close up view of the final days of the Afghan government and a portrait of the city after its eventual fall. Particularly with the war in the Ukraine, Afghanistan has slipped from the front pages of the newspapers, and from the national conversation. Given the long history of the United States involvement, as well as the long history of our own ignorance of the place, it seems necessary and fitting to welcome Aikens to the show to share his view of this complicated and troubled country. Of course, on ReligionWise we like to think about religious and cultural diversity, and how they impact our world and the public conversation. I think this is a really good example of how religion and culture get wound up in economics, politics, warfare, the refugee crisis, and many other aspects of the human stories as they unfold in Afghanistan. I think as we move beyond the headlines and think about individuals, as they operate in their own worlds, we can see more clearly how religious identity along with myriad other identities, affects how they live their lives, the choices that they make, and their own world views. Aikens' reporting, because it is so on the ground, and so visceral when confronted with individuals from Kabul from Afghanistan, generally, we can put faces and names with the larger story with the larger headlines and think more particularly about the individuals and how they're affected by the geopolitical and economic forces all around them. Matthew Aikens, thanks for agreeing to appear on ReligionWise.

Matthieu Aikins: 3:50

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Chip Gruen: 3:52

So first off, congratulations on the Pulitzer Prize for your reporting in Afghanistan, as well as the many other awards that you've earned in the last several years. It's quite a string of accomplishments.

Matthieu Aikins: 4:04

Well, thank you.

Chip Gruen: 4:06

So I want to come to the specifics of some of those pieces that have appeared in The New York Times and a variety of other outlets, Rolling Stone, GQ, etc. And then also to your recent book that we will talk about in a little bit, but first, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your own background. It's both really interesting personal history, and I think important for understanding your work. So can you tell us a little bit about your transition from being a young traveler to then becoming a freelance journalist?

Matthieu Aikins: 4:38

Sure. Well, I went to university in Canada, which is where I grew up, and then after I graduated, I wanted to travel and see the world and I was also interested in being a writer, being a freelance journalist, so I set off in the spring of 2008. I flew to Paris and then started backpacking, hitchhiking, couchsurfing my way east. I spent the summer in the Balkans, and I had the vague idea to go to India and wanted to go over land. So on my way through Central Asia, I realized it was easier to get to Afghanistan to get an Afghan visa. And it was to get a visa through Turkmenistan, which was the other route. So a bit by accident, I found myself crossing the Amu Darya River into northern Afghanistan in the fall of 2008. And this is at a time when security in some parts of the country was still manageable in a sense. And there were backpackers or independent travelers going there, but it was quickly becoming a bad idea. I actually learned though, that I because of my half Asian heritage, I passed for Afghan and I started learning the language and traveling around the country, having adventures and started writing stories about them. And that was how I got my start as a foreign correspondent by writing about the war in Afghanistan.

Chip Gruen: 6:08

Yeah. And so you to this day, you're still a freelance journalist. Is that right?

Matthieu Aikins: 6:13

That's correct. Yup.

Chip Gruen: 6:15

Yeah. Because it's interesting. I mean one of the things that I find interesting about your one of your most recent pieces in the times,"Inside the Fall of Kabul" is that The New York Times got all of their people out, right. But yet, because you were a freelance journalist, you weren't bound by those by those rules by by your employer. So you were able to stay on in country. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how that experience of everybody else leaving you staying on as the the Taliban is getting closer, as the as the government is getting shakier and shakier, what what were you able to see and document that some of your your colleagues were not because they had to leave?

Matthieu Aikins: 7:00

Well, on the day of the fall of Kabul and August 15, I in my housemate, the Belgian photographer, Jim Huylebroek, who was also a freelancer working for The Times, we went out to the outskirts of the city and actually witnessed Taliban fighters entering Kabul, and there were crowds in the streets, cheering them in that area. And we really felt like we're being present for history.

Chip Gruen: 7:25

One of the things that I find interesting, and I noticed, "Inside the Fall of Kabul," as well as in, in the book, you describe the community of foreign contractors and workers, etc. And it seems like, you know, going all the way back, I mean, in the book to 2014, like people see the writing on the wall, that there is a sense of kind of impending, of an instability, but yet that instability goes on for seven years. I just wonder about what that community looks like. I mean, I guess I'm just, I'm just struck by the, by the building of that international community of workers to NGO, the military people, the government, people, the foreign contractors, and being inside, as you say, inside watching this history unfold, but then also having this kind of sense of, of what's coming. I mean, am I reading that right? I mean, does that did that sense of of instability, go go that far back to 2014?

Matthieu Aikins: 8:27

It went back even further. I mean, the thing is that this community, this group of expats, and everyone who worked with the foreigners in Kabul, knew that that bubble world is required the input of billions of dollars every year, right. So it was a boomtown, but everyone knew that I was going to come to an end, and what was created as a result of this huge influx of of spending, you know, both development aid and also military contracting, and they knew that it was what was created as a result of that was not very lasting, you know, it was, again, very much focused on the short term. And ever, I think everyone knew that once the money ran out that the mostly people were going to leave. So people were in it for the short term in many cases. And they were looking to get out both foreigners of course, who came there often to make a buck or their careers and, and in Kabul, but, but also a lot of the Afghans who, especially the elites who were funneling this money out of the country and feathering their nests abroad in places like Dubai or London, and when the rubber hit the road, they all got out. And they've been preparing for this moment. It came a lot sooner or more abruptly than I think anyone imagined in terms of the fall of Kabul sudden collapse of the government security forces, but it was definitely something that the elite had been preparing for and they were out the door.

Chip Gruen: 10:01

While a lot of people were short timers, you would not be described as a short timer in Afghanistan when you first you know, get there, I believe it's in in 2008, or shortly thereafter, you still are returning to do work there. I mean, you've been there almost a decade and a half at this point. In her review of the book, "The Naked Don't Fear the Water," Jessica Goudeau describes the book, and in her review in The New York Times as a, quote, "a profound act of love." What do you think she meant by that? And you do you think that is an accurate description of the book?

Matthieu Aikins: 10:39

Well, love is a theme that runs through the book. It's the love of Omar for his family. You know, Omar is the main character, he's the refugee and the friend that I follow it on this undercover journey, along the migrant trail, from Afghanistan to Europe. And so the love that held this family together over their many decades of, of exile, because Omar was, of course, like many Afghans, a refugee, in his childhood, he grew up around exile in Iran and Pakistan. And it's very difficult circumstances, but the determination of his mother especially to hold the family together and to, to provide a future for her children in the midst of extremely difficult circumstances, was a result of a kind of love. Then there's almost love for Laila, the girl that he falls for, and decides Yes, to leave Kabul to get a chance of winning her hand. But there's other kinds of love, too, there's love the figure of the Beloved, you know, it's something that I refer to in the book. So you have Sufi poets, who are singing, the lyrics to the pop songs that Omar is listening to. And there are other poets who describe the Beloved as the revolution that they hope for, and can no longer rationally believe in but nonetheless have faith in. So the book depicts many kinds of love, and the fact that it is love that drives people to, to move in these journeys to take incredible risks. To try to seek something and have the depiction of love is itself and act of love.

Chip Gruen: 12:26

Yeah, I want to follow up a little bit on the mention of the Sufis and the Sufi poetry and the songs and so forth, because that is something that is a recurrent theme. I wouldn't say it's the main theme in the book, but it's something that is sort of a refrain that happens. And I would really like you to talk a little bit more about, about how that you know how that is a part of the culture and how that is a variety of the the Muslim experience, the Muslim worldview that you don't hear as much about particularly in Afghanistan. And in particular, you know, one of the things about Sufism, that's so interesting, to me, it is about love, but it's also very much about loss and longing, longing for the divine that is in in transcendent, but, but it seems, I mean, poetic is obvious, but it seems very fitting to the situation that a lot of your characters find themselves in.

Matthieu Aikins: 13:27

Yeah, well, you know, Sufism has a very long tradition in in Afghanistan and Central Asia, that is where famously the poet Rumi originally comes from. And so these classic poems are very much part of popular culture there and very famous, contemporary or modern singers like [inaudible] often use lyrics from people like Rumi and[inaudible], in their songs, so something that people it's very much in the vernacular, and this this, the Sufi idea of mysticism, and as as of life itself as a form of exile from God, and God's presence, you know, lends itself to these, these depictions of the traveler or the wanderer, the journey and of course, so this kind of language, these tropes are very often used by Afghans to talk about their own exiles, you know, the experience of Afghans for the past 40 years has been one of repeated cycles of displacement and exile because of the war. So this feeling of longing for, for what you're separated from is something that I think corresponds very well to some of these Sufi themes and for the Sufis, of course, you know what the these worldly forms of exile or these worldly journeys were just a kind of reflection of a fundamental spiritual form of exile and quest for, for God. And for me, it was interesting to, to draw on some of this imagery and some of this poetry, partly just as a way of bringing to life, the spiritual and emotional world of someone like my friend. But also, I think it helped to infuse our journey with, I think, some of the more ineffable elements of a quest, because I think what we forget in migration, especially forced migration, which is often depicted in in kind of humanitarian terms, impoverished suffering desperate people, is that there are, of course, you know, all sorts of spiritual and intellectual and ideological layers to this, these experiences they're experiences in those terms, by the by the refugees themselves, just because you're a refugee doesn't mean you stop thinking about God or politics or, or, you know, romantic love. And, and in a sense, I think that that is what connects this, this particular experience that we went through, or the people I write about the book went through to a much more universal experience of, of our search for, you know, for meaning for, for a kind of union, in the world across, what are these, these borders, these fissures, you know, the very stark inequalities, and political systems that divide people on the planet, for example.

Chip Gruen: 16:45

Yeah, and it seems to me, like what you detail in the migration is, you know, obviously, you know, hunger, exposure to the elements, all of those things that you talked about, but the cultural difference, I mean, can't be overstated, either here that you're, you know, that that land route to Europe, is, you know, the things that you you think about, as you think about, as you say, God and politics and so forth, as you move across Western Asia and and into and into Europe, I mean, the culture around you is changing, how you are perceived, as a person is changing, as well. So I think that, that that cultural difference must play a huge role in how people are, you know, feel that sense of meaning or feel, you know, the belonging or in most cases, the lack thereof.

Matthieu Aikins: 17:42

Yeah, definitely.

Chip Gruen: 17:44

Um, so I want to go back a second. And and I made this connection in my mind, and I just want you to either confirm it, or correct me on it. But so the Sufism that, as we've talked about is sort of running through your description, and your descriptions, as both a fact on the ground and also as a metaphor for these larger things that are going on. And, you know, one of the major sort of components of Sufism is not only the poetry but as you say, putting those those poems to music, and some of the rituals are associated with dancing, all of which are frowned on. That's maybe not strong enough, all of which are banned by the Taliban, because of their interpretation, their understanding of the Sharia law that they want to impose. I mean, is there a is there a correlation between the kind of Sufism that you experienced that you saw, and maybe the more, it's the wrong word, but the more liberal or progressive elements, not only politically, but culturally in the country.?

Matthieu Aikins: 18:57

I think that Sufism is often interpreted by a western audience, as you know, being as kind of liberal, more liberal or more frankly, westernized form of Islam. And we can only see the kind of egregious uses the mistranslations, of Rumi had been put to, you know, for kind of self help books, Deepak Chopra, Chris Martin and stuff like that.

Chip Gruen: 19:19

Right.

Matthieu Aikins: 19:19

And there's no doubt that there there there is some truth in that, but Sufism is very much part of Orthodox, traditional Islam. And it there are many Sufis who think of themselves very much as as, as strict or even fundamentalist in some ways. You know, the, what's, I think, not well known is that Mullah Omar, the founder of the Taliban, himself was took part in Sufism, you know, he had a Sufi peer, at one point like he was a follower of a Sufi leader, in southern Afghanistan, this would have been a very austere form of Sufism. I don't think there would have been any kind of instrumental music used, but it was, it was definitely part of his practice some of the stuff around you know, worship, around great veneration of graves and interpretation of dreams that we hear about in the in the early Taliban are very much Sufi practices, and they're sort of part of the folk religion in Afghanistan as well. And, and so, Sufism is not necessarily opposed to a kind of strict or more austere Islam. Now, it is, it is true that some of the more modernizing trends in political Islam, you know, like Wahhabism, are explicitly anti-Sufi or anti many of the practices associated with Sufism, such as shrines on graves. And I think that the Taliban today have are have been increasingly influenced by these larger trends within political Islam. So they have been influenced by by Deobandism is another some kind of more modernist strand of fundamentalist Islam that you find in South Asia, and Wahhabism. I think that a lot of the Taliban have been influenced by that. But again, at the village level, the folk level in Afghanistan, including among, you know, places in places where the Taliban come from, you do find a lot of these Sufi practices like, like the interpretation of dreams, the use of charms, amulets, certain forms of meditative prayer, they're very much alive and well, music has a particularly instrumental music as a particularly controversial status within Islam, and definitely the Taliban have banned it. And they're quite explicit about that.

Chip Gruen: 21:56

So one of my goals on ReligionWise is to get people to take religion and religious diversity seriously, which is, of course, why I'm coming up, you know, thinking about about Sufism, and its role here. But differences in worldviews can often help us to explain people's actions. And I think that sometimes that the public conversation, whether it be in, in academia, or in journalism, or in government, can sometimes get this wrong by not taking religion seriously. How do you think that religious ideas impact the situation and governance in Afghanistan? I mean, obviously, the Taliban is religious organization. But it seems like the public discourse and so can sometimes doubt the sincerity of the Taliban religiosity, and therefore imagine it as a cover for base or motivation. So it's really about power or control or wealth or what have you. Do you think that having a firm grasp on the kind of religious difference and the, you know, the understanding of Islam by the Taliban leadership is, is helpful in understanding their motivations and how they're operating within

Matthieu Aikins: 23:18

Well, I think it's kind of a misunderstanding the country? of, of political religion in general, not just Islam, that you can't have people who are both very sincere about their religious motivations and also are operating for purposes of power and politics, right, that the two can coexist. Taliban are very sincere about their faith. It's, it's a very, I mean, I was struck now in the last year that I've been going back Afghan since the Taliban has taken over I've we've all had an opportunity to speak with them sit with them to just to see some of the other side and there's no doubt that this discourse around Islam is very important and it has a very strong disciplining and kind of regulatory effect on the movement. And and yet, they are a political movement that they are seeking power and they have lots of worldly motives as well. So I don't think it's really one or the other. What we misunderstood in Afghanistan, I think, is just how how traditional and Islamic of a society it is. And we've been obsessed with these kind of westernized images that we, you know that for us are symbols of progress. So the Afghan women, for example, you know, taking the burqa off and having them go to school, having them study robotics, having a skateboard, you know, all of which are fine in and of themselves and, and I'm really glad that you know, some girls got to do that stuff. And I think every girl should, every person including girls should have a chance as to do what they want in life. But if we became, we became kind of obsessed with the symbols, and I think told ourselves a story about Afghanistan and what Afghans wanted. That was very much at odds with reality, which is that for large parts of the population, you know, that their their own traditional idea of Islam was very, very important. And when they saw that being threatened, they reacted, and that was one of the drivers of support for the Taliban, you know, whether it was accurate or not, there was a perception that the a lot of what was happening in Kabul, under the influence of non Muslim, you know, foreign countries pumping billions of dollars into a very corrupt elite, was un-Islamic. And that was just a powerful motivating tool for the Taliban, it was very simple for them to explain why they were fighting. And I think it became increasingly difficult for government, soldiers and police to justify why they were fighting for, for an elite that was so corrupt and backed by foreigners who, who are on their way out the door.

Chip Gruen: 26:05

Yeah, one of the things when you read the reception of your work and the reviews of your work, one of the things that people say repeatedly, and I think that should be a badge of honor, is that in your writing, there's not, you know, the the black hats and the white hats, right? There's not the good guys and the bad guys, but that there's very complicated human stories, right, that there are people with motivations that grow out of their own contexts. And people operate not only in they're both in their own interest but an interest in their communities. Can you talk a little bit about that about the complicatedness of the characters, about the the people that you that you interview, and that you feature in your work?

Matthieu Aikins: 26:47

Well, I think that complication is something that becomes apparent when you actually get on the ground and you begin to get to know people, they trust you enough to tell you, perhaps a real story behind some things rather than one they think you want to hear. And you as you learn more, you begin to see just how immensely complicated it is. And so what you're then trying to write against is this very powerful, mystifying force that accompanies war and power that is produced partly by propaganda and psychological warfare that are that are very much part of the mission there. And partly just by I think, you know, larger discourses within the media, want to call it Orientalism? Or, or what, whatever you have it, but there isn't, there's just this incredibly powerful, mystifying force that want want to paint the conflict as one between good and evil, right. When obviously, we're on the right side, we're on the good side. So. So what we're doing is supporting the good guys against the bad guys and Taliban are someone who's coming from outside coming from Pakistan. And we're trying to help communities defend themselves against them. When in fact, the truth was, this is a civil war. This is a war that's incredibly complicated and it's often cousin against cousins, or even brother against brother, it's, it's tangled up in, you know, 20 years of conflict before that, and, and you're pumping weapons and ammunition and money into it to just to turbocharge it and fight on the side of people who are often doing, you know, involved in crimes just as bad as the Taliban were in terms of torture, extrajudicial executions, rape. So, so that was the truth of the war. But we, you know, and so then there was just as consistent attempt to mystify it, to, to paint it as the struggle between good and evil. And I really did feel that that my task, and the task of, of journalists who are trying to find the truth was to struggle against that, that justification. And I think it led us badly astray.

Chip Gruen: 29:07

So to come back a little bit to something you mentioned earlier, your ability because of your own personal appearance. And this obviously plays a role in in joining with the migration, the migration to Europe, with Omar and the others, that you're, you have the ability to pass, you have the ability to pass as Afghan and Afghanistan of courses is not a singular place lots of different linguistic traditions, and tribal traditions and so forth. So that that makes it maybe a little easier as well. But and I wonder I was thinking about that also as a theme through this, of passing but also belonging and a sense of belonging that, you know, people want, right people desperately want but yet the history of Afghanistan over the last 50 years has made that really tremendously difficult. What do you what do you think of that read about belonging and passing and identity, being, you know, being significant themes for not only people in Afghanistan, but people then as refugees and migrants?

Matthieu Aikins: 30:21

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, as I was saying earlier about, you know, love and exile, I think that it's important to try to connect some of these experiences that we associate with forced migration in Afghanistan, in particular, with with more general human conditions, like the dislocation. And the see feeling of ruthlessness of even exile is something that's obviously very much a part of the the modern world is produced by, by the technologies that that shape our world that caused us to move cities and mix cultures in this feeling of dislocation. This this the necessity of past to be translated to translate oneself is something that is particularly acute with with migration and forced migration. But I think that all of us can can understand on some level, in so far as we have left the traditional route of lifestyle. So there are many kinds of passing in the book. The the act of passing that I do, you know, as an Afghan refugee as an Afghan undercover is something that as I point out is rooted a little bit in that, almost imperialist tradition, you know, Richard Francis Burton, and imperialist explorers like that who went over and traveled beyond the periphery of the Empire by disguising themselves as natives. But it's by no means restricted to them, you know, there were other passers who, who, you know, Afghans passing is different sects, and migrants who are passing now as Europeans to get through borders. And, and so there's there, there's this idea of identity as performance. And that has made manifest in at moment at the border and moments of transition. But in fact, is I think, the fundamental condition that we live under whether we are all in a sense, performing identities, and we're performing them in relation to, you know, much bigger structures of nationality, and class, and race. And so traveling, like this is a way to, I think, examine them this passing and make it more visible.

Chip Gruen: 32:42

And I want to bring it back to something else you mentioned in the book. And and you know, it seems to me your perspective on this particular issue on identity and belonging, maybe a little less on passing, for other reasons, but certainly on identity and belonging is also rooted in your own family's complicated history. Can you talk a little bit about how that affected your, your understanding of, of ethnicity and race and a sense of belonging?

Matthieu Aikins: 33:15

Well, my father's side of the family are European, you know, mix of Irish and French and English, and they're from Canada, on my mother's side, came from Japan, the beginning of 20th century, and they were, you know, put into the internment camps during World War II, which was a racist act of state violence against American citizens, it's now acknowledged to be a kind of shameful period in our history, but at the time was very much supported by the public. And then, as a result, I think they, they very much tried to, the Japanese Americans that is, tried to assimilate. And that has come with a sort of broader cultural and racial moment or post racial, some people like to try and call it moment in America, where the, let's say, the definition of what's a normal, white, you know, the whiteness in essence, you know, is now much more multi ethnic, to the point where me as someone who's who's mixed race, who would have been seen as I think, not white, and foreign, you know, a generation or two ago, is now just part of the mix and I could just kind of blend in in a city like yours. And I don't have to think about my race. I don't really experience racism, like my, my Japanese ancestors did. So I've inherited a kind of white privilege. And, and the, the paradox of that allowing me to now pass as an Afghan. So so some of the more most vulnerable people you know in the world, I would say people are hunted by the US military. And who are profiled for, by antiterrorism, mechanisms, the borders, and the cast out as asylum seekers. So that to go from being a privileged American male, you know, straight citizen to, to passing as an Afghan is maybe a little less surprising, or less difficult to understand what I think about the experience of my Japanese forebears and to be in that camp in Lesbos. Inside barbed wire, made me think about them. And I think we all have stories like that, in our past, if we look back far enough, and it doesn't really mean anything, it doesn't, it doesn't automatically mean I don't think have some kind of ethical import, because that kind of is the story of human history as people rising up to the top and then staying there, right. Regardless of what maybe they suffered a generation or two ago, sometimes that can make people all the more determined to cling to their privilege, remembering the hardship they faced, or their people faced. Repeating that violence, you know, as we as we see in a place like Israel, for example. But but I do think it just offers a way, you know, to think about these stories to acknowledge them. It says it does complicate things it does, it does give us I think, at least the possibility of empathy and creates fissures maybe in the solidity of our of our privilege.

Chip Gruen: 36:58

Looking to the future, and one of these questions, I think, will be easier for you to answer and one of them will be a little bit more difficult, but looking to the future. I mean, what do you see for yourself? I mean, you, you seem to still have the opportunity to travel back and continue your reporting in Afghanistan. So what do you see professionally for yourself there? And then sort of more broadly, what do you see in the next 10 years, generation, for Afghanistan, from your experience there?

Matthieu Aikins: 37:35

Well, we we absolutely do have an opportunity to go to Afghanistan now as Western journalists, we don't know how long that's gonna last. The relationship between the Taliban and the West is not improving. And so that might, that might not be the case. But while, while it is, while we're able to travel there, while, we have the privilege of traveling there, which a lot of Afghans don't, because they don't feel safe reporting in Afghanistan. If they're reporting critically of the Taliban, then we have responsibility, I think, to use that and to keep a spotlight on the country. So I'm gonna keep going back and reporting on it that was just there in May for a story. So. And I also think it's just a very interesting time to be in the country, because suffering is a massive humanitarian crisis. There's an economic collapse, US sanctions have crippled economy. And there's there's so much that's going wrong in Afghanistan right now that we have tremendous responsibility for, but also very limited means now to influence speaking, you know, in terms of the West, but but it's fascinating because you now have access to the other side of the war. And in the countryside, there is peace, the fighting is stopped for the most part and a lot of places for which people are grateful. And so you can travel to areas that were very difficult to access before talk to people. I think that now is an opportunity to write fuller account of the war and what happened. I wrote many of revisionist history that can cut through some of that mystification I was talking about earlier. As a country, I mean, it's it's obviously difficult to predict I think, that the one hand that the prognosis is not good, because if you look at the root causes of the conflict for the last four years, those have not really been addressed. The Taliban have this moment of peace, but it doesn't appear clear that they're able or willing to use it to broaden their base to reconcile with groups that have been marginalized. They still have a lot of problematic links with groups like Al Qaeda, and so they are possibly wasting a historic window of opportunity that will close and we'll have a resumption of kind of fragmentation, civil war, that we've had other periods, and that those are, of course, the most disastrous periods for Afghan civilians. But on the other hand, you know, the most important cause of civil war in Afghanistan has always been foreign intervention, whether Soviet or American, or Pakistani or. And so right now, there is a consensus, I think, among all countries that have an interest in Afghanistan, that that no one wants to start restart a civil war, no one wants to fight an armed opposition, the Taliban. People would like to see the stability there. And that could change, especially the Taliban, the harbor, transnational terrorist groups. But for now, there hasn't been significant external support to the armed opposition. So that I think is, is on the plus side. But Afghanistans go through a very, very difficult time. It's still one of the poorest countries in the world, it was one of the most independent, sudden cut off of that aid has had predictable consequences. So Afghans absolutely need the world's support, and we shouldn't be punishing an entire nation collectively for our failure or for the Taliban's misdeeds. And we shouldn't forget that, over the last four decades of an almost impossible situation, for Afghans, one of their most persistent and effective survival strategies has been to migrate has been to leave you know, country where you were otherwise you'd face starvation or, or violence. And they've left and they've mostly gone to neighboring countries, like most refugees, they go to Iran and Pakistan, but others go further, they go to the Middle East, they go to Europe, they can't they come to US and, and they don't, they're not one way journeys, Afghans are often coming back and forth, they've formed over the last four decades, transnational communities, the diaspora, that has been helped helped the country survive more than anything more than foreign aid, has been the remittance the setback from people who are working. And so we should see that for what it is a survival strategy. And if we pass restrictive immigration laws, we make it harder for refugees to integrate, to visit each other to marry to study. Then we're going to strangle the life of that community, we're gonna choke off one of the very, very few things that responses that Afghans have now to this total failure of the international community, in this long suffering country.

Chip Gruen: 42:47

So where I always try to end up and I think that you, you deal with this a little bit in in some of your articles as well, but where I always try to end up is if I'm listening to this podcast, and I, I want to educate myself or I want to have a positive impact is there's something that I can do. I mean, you in some of your pieces, talk about how, you know that there that we in the international community want to salve our conscious with, you know, with token gestures that don't quite go far enough. What do you think sort of your, the the listener to the podcast can do to have a positive impact on this tragic situation?

Matthieu Aikins: 43:33

Well, I think there's very little that we can do to that we'll have a, you know, deep impact on wars overseas or global inequality. These these are collective problems, and they're beyond the ability of any one individual[inaudible] of the President of the United States to solve. It belongs to the realm of politics. And I think that's it's been sort of a question of what what are your listeners' politics. But but on an individual level, there is a lot that we can do that feels meaningful to us and to other people. And that is another thing I've tried to depict in the book is just how faced with impossible situations impossibly big situations, or tragic ones, individuals unless act according their consciences to help each other. And so if you are appalled by what's happening in Afghanistan, and would like to do something, then there are Afghan refugees 10s of 1000s of them scattered across the US. So there's almost certainly some in your community who you could you could help get in touch with community groups that are receiving them you could just take someone out to park and help them feel a little more at home. You could help them cut their cable bill, you could donate money, you could donate your time, whatever it is. I think it's it's important to act in, in a way that will feel meaningful to ourselves as well. I mean, it is altruism, but I think in order for altruism to be to be effective and lasting, it has to transform us as individuals too. And that means I think becoming emotionally engaged in what you're doing. And so I think it's less a question of is this going to change the world? Is it a deep enough change? It's how are you going to change yourself? And how are you going to do it in a relationship of you know, a real accountability in love with another human being? In a way that again, does reflect your your politics your idea of the world.

Chip Gruen: 45:42

All right, well, Matthieu Aikens, thank you very much for appearing on ReligionWise. This has been great, super fascinating, and congratulations on your work and good luck in the future.

Matthieu Aikins: 45:53

Thank you so much for having me.

Chip Gruen: 45:58

This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise is produced and directed by Christine Flicker. For more information about additional programming, or to make an inquiry about a speaking engagement. Please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There you'll find our contact information, links to other programming and have the opportunity to support the work of the Institute. Please subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next time.