ReligionWise

Simran Jeet Singh

October 20, 2021 Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding Season 1 Episode 2
ReligionWise
Simran Jeet Singh
Show Notes Transcript

This episode of ReligionWise features a conversation with Simran Jeet Singh, a highly sought out speaker on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice and anti-racism. His thought leadership extends across corporate, university and government settings, and his work has been featured in various outlets including NPR, CNN, BBC, Time, The Washington Post and The New York Times. Simran is especially passionate about creating more cohesion, equity, and joy for all stakeholders.

The conversation includes his experiences growing up a Sikh in South Texas, his role as an activist working for change and for a more just and more equitable society, and his role as a scholar whose job is to describe and help other people understand the belief and practice of religious communities.

Show Notes

  • Simran Jeet Singh (https://www.simranjeetsingh.org/)
  • Fauja Singh Keeps Going: The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a Marathon (https://www.simranjeetsingh.org/fauja)
  • Religion News Service: Articles of Faith (https://religionnews.com/category/opinion/columns/simran-jeet-singh/)
  • The Light We Give: The Power of Sikh Wisdom to Transform Your Life (Riverhead/Penguin Random House, 2022)
Chip Gruen:

Welcome to ReligionWise, the podcast where we feature educators, researchers and other professionals discussing topics on religion and their relevance to the public conversation. My name is Chip Gruen. I'm the Director of the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding at Muhlenberg College, and I will be the host for this podcast. Today's episode of ReligionWise features my conversation with Simran Jeet Singh. Simran is a highly sought out speaker on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice and anti-racism. His thought leadership extends across corporate, university and government settings, and his work has been featured in various outlets including NPR, CNN, BBC, Time, The Washington Post and The New York Times. Simran is especially passionate about creating more cohesion, equity, and joy for all stakeholders. I'm pleased to say that Dr. Singh will also give the Wallenberg Tribute lecture on November 7th, on the campus of Muhlenberg College. You can get more details about that event at religionandculture.com. In our conversation, we talk about his experiences of growing up a Sikh in South Texas, his role as an activist who is actively working for change and working for a more just and more equitable society, as well as his role as a scholar whose job is to describe and help other people understand the belief and practice of religious communities. It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Singh to ReligionWise. So first, I just wanted to thank you very much for agreeing to participate in, in a number of activities at Muhlenberg this semester, the Wallenberg Lecture and this podcast, we're super happy to have you included in the program.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Of course, no it's my pleasure, I'm looking forward to it.

Chip Gruen:

I'm interested, you know, that obviously, your your PhD is from one of the best universities in the world, you're trained in religious studies. And you do teach, but you've really chosen a career path that is more about public engagement. And I'm interested in that and how you see the relationship between that public engagement and scholarship and also between sort of personal identity and sometimes the distance that comes with academic training.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, it's a great question. And actually, I couldn't really talk about my academic identity, without talking about my personal identity, that for me, they, they come very close together. And that's very much because of, of my own experience in this world, and how I've, how I've grown up, and how I've experienced racism, and, and really, what motivated me to even get into academic study in the first place is, is very much tied to to those experiences, you know, I was a senior in high school when the terrorist attacks of 9/11 happened. And after those attacks, my life changed drastically in terms of the intensity of the hate, that I experienced as a Sikh, and that my community experienced. And that's what really propelled me onto the path of academic study. I wanted to know what was happening, why it was happening, and how I could fix it. And all three of those questions were really important to me. And while the academic study of religion helped me answer the first two, the the what and the why it didn't really prepare me sufficiently to think about how to fix it, how to support my communities, how to ensure our survival, and our safety and our comfort in this country. And so that's where I really started learning about justice organizations efforts, public engagement, and made that a critical part of my work in this world.

Chip Gruen:

So there are a couple things I'd like to follow up on I mean, one you talked about, you know, your life changing dramatically in 2001 and though obviously, Sikh culture and religious heritage is deeply tied to India, you grew up in South Texas. So can you talk a little bit about your your upbringing and about, about growing up as a Sikh in South Texas? I mean, maybe pre 2001 and then we can talk about the changes?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yes, sure. So my parents are both from they're both Punjabi Sikhs by background. My my father grew up in outside of Punjab, in Uttar Pradesh in a different state in India, and my mother also grew up in a state outside of Punjab called Haryana. So, so they're, they're sort of diasporic in a sense. But still within India, my my grandparents on both sides lived in Western Punjab, which before the split in 1947, that was Pakistan. And so they they moved in that mass migration, which is one of the largest in human history. They moved amid that violence and survived but essentially landed in India with nothing. And then my parents again left India and moved to the US with essentially nothing and so it's it's kind of a story of our family's life and for many Sikhs, this this experience of double belonging or maybe even more like not belonging anywhere. And that that felt really true for me growing up in Texas right I was I was born and raised there, I have three brothers, we're all really close in age, five and a half years from top to bottom. So my my poor mom, having having to raise four rambunctious, mischievous boys in the middle of, in the middle of Texas where we grew up, and, and on the one hand, our lives felt very normal. You know, we had friends and teammates, and classmates and teachers who we who we loved, and who we hung out with, and who we considered close friends and still do. But at the same time, we were under no illusion that we actually fit in anywhere. We stood out everywhere we went, people always commented on our turbans, usually not maliciously, they would just ask, you know, what's that about? What's on your head? Why do you wear that? And, you know, we learn to answer that. Sometimes it would be a little bit more malicious, a little bit uglier, you know, we would get into arguments and fights sometimes depending on how things played out. So it's not like it was this, you know, idyllic, harmonious upbringing that there were some challenges too. But, you know, as part of that, I would say, we had to learn from a really young age, because of the way we stood out where we were growing up. And because people were constantly asking us questions about who we were including our friends and our classmates, we had to understand our heritage, and our parents took a lot of care, to communicate and transmit our traditions to us, we grew up speaking only Punjabi, until we started daycare, which is something that I've done with my own daughters now so that they can retain the language. We had tons of books at home, we would learn to read and write at home, we learned musical traditions at home. So it was it was an isolated upbringing in that sense, where it's not like we had other Sikhs around us who we could learn with in a Sunday school type of setting. But that is, you know, a lot of that is a testament to my parents, that we were able to feel connected with this tradition that was very much not part of the of the of the South Texas fabric. And it was only because of their effort at home.

Chip Gruen:

So when they moved to South Texas, it wasn't that they were moving into a diasporic Sikh community that was already there. It was your family and that was it.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, there were a handful of other Punjabi's, some Sikhs, a few South Asians, you know, very, very, I mean, very much the makeup of South Texas at the time was Hispanic, Black, and White, I mean, that that's what my school's makeup look like. That's what our neighborhood looked like. That's what my friends circle look like. That's my soccer teams look like. So that was very much the experience. Now it's changed a bit. But it really wasn't a place. And you know, you sort of see this in immigration patterns, you know, you you see communities come and create pockets, where they sort of live together in ethnic enclaves and find comfort that way. And then, as time goes on, people start venturing out. And so my father was one of those adventurers who thought South Texas was a good place for him and a good place for a Sikh family. And in many ways, I think he was right, I see the wisdom in his decision there. And like any, like any decision there, there are pros and cons. And one of the one of the cons, I think, was that we didn't really have a strong community, and we didn't really have people around us who we felt like could understand our experiences growing up, you know, the kinds of challenges that I faced, it felt really isolating. But at the same time, I think there was a lot of growth and strength that came through learning how to navigate these challenges. And I'm grateful for all of that.

Chip Gruen:

So you also mentioned, you know, you're a senior in high school and in 2001, that your situation changes because of the September 11 terrorist attacks. And one of the I mean, one of the interesting things about this, one of the things that I want to push on a little bit, is how it is on the one hand American, sort of just sort of the public conversation about religious diversity in America is so impoverished that you know that that the populace sees a Sikh male in particular, and misidentifies religious tradition, right? That there's this confusion about just because of the lack of literacy around Sikhs and people of the Muslim faith on the one hand, but on the other hand, I've also seen, you know, Sikh commentary on this saying, it's on the one hand, we want to say, no, no, that's not us. But on the other hand, not wanting to throw another minority group, you know, to the wolves, right, by saying, you know, go ahead, hate them don't hate us, right, that there's something really difficult about this situation, it seems to me, someone from your community identity would, is put in?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, it's an incredibly difficult situation. I mean, I, one of the things that I've learned is that in situations of racism or other forms of oppression, there's there's no perfect answer. You know, the, the conditions are set up for people to lose regardless. And so it's, it's often a matter of what's the worst? What's the worst loss and trying to avoid that and finding out what's, what's the best loss and aiming for that. And so it's, it's really difficult. And I would say, you know, even within the Sikh community, there's no consensus in terms of the best way to handle a question like this. But one of the things that I observed, you know, as a high school student, after 9/11, was Sikh communities. You know, we would get on conference calls in the evenings immediately after 9/11, led by community leaders all over the country. And on these calls, people would share their reports on the hate attacks that were happening in their communities, what they were doing about it, and eventually we would get to this question, Well, what do we do collectively? What's our messaging? What's our plan? And this is where that conversation really came to a head where you would I mean, I would hear people who I admired and respected, give really strong arguments for different approaches. And they all make sense, right? They all have their merit. The place where I've landed personally, over time, is essentially a three part approach that says, hey, I'm not Muslim, I'm a Sikh. And even if you were, even if I wasn't Muslim, you know, your bigotry is wrong. And so essentially, what what that method does, and I use that sort of three part structure to triangulate all of my responses, and they differ in different contexts, depending on what feels appropriate. But essentially, in the first two, I'm trying to educate somebody and say, let me give you a couple of facts. And so it's, it's super simple, but as you're saying, and as you've said, cultural and religious literacy is so impoverished in this country, that those basic facts that you would expect, or want somebody to know, like, those actually do work. So there is some important thing there but but to leave it there, and this is what we were finding in those early moments after 9/11. To leave it at those two factual statements and say, I'm not Muslim, I'm a Sikh is to implicitly send the message, that you got the wrong person, go get there, go get the quote, unquote, right person. And that, while it wasn't our intention, and it wasn't my intention, that was the impact. And we recognize that pretty quickly. And so that's, that's not within our value system. And so then the question becomes, what do you do? How do you how do you actually live into your values? And, you know, to put it into practical terms, I would say the easiest response is the first one, right? Like, I'm not Muslim, I'm a s Sikh, it's factually true, and it creates more safety for you immediately. But I don't think it creates more safety in the long run, because it doesn't actually address hate at its core. And so there's, there's a real strategic principle here, which is to say, if you really want to create safety for your communities, then you have to address the problem rather than pushing it aside or deflecting it to another group. And so that's one. And then the other animating principle for me here is around the ethical response, what's the right thing to do? And you know, a lot of times in, in in difficult situations, and especially when your family's safety is involved. Doing the right thing isn't always as important as doing the safest thing. But in this case, when we have a chance to help shape the narrative. To me, I think focusing on what is ethical from the perspective of the tradition is really important, and so I had to dig a little bit deeper and think about, what does our tradition teach us about standing up for others? And one of the things that's very clear to me and we learn this as kids, you know, all Sikh kids learn this early is the teaching that it is our responsibility as Sikhs, to stand up for the rights of others, no matter what consequences that may have for us. And one of the very, I mean, that's, that's a teaching that we learned early and one of the ways that comes through, is in this really popular, what we call a Sakhi. An account of the ninth gurus' life, Guru Tegh Bahadur who was approached by Kashmiri Brahmins who are being persecuted under Aurangzeb's rule. And they come to Guru Tegh Bahadur and they say, hey, we know you're not of the same religion as us, we know that you're not being persecuted. But we need help. And we know that you are somebody who says that you're here to help. And Guru Tegh Bahadur stands by that, and although his community wasn't being troubled, by by the persecution of Aurangzeb's Empire, Guru Tegh Bahadur goes to Delhi, and he's arrested. And he's tortured. And he's executed for doing that. And to me, it is the ultimate example of what solidarity looks like what ally ship looks like, like in this country, we talk about these ideas, day in and day out. But we don't really see it in action in ways where people are actually taking and making sacrifices, showing up for people and taking risk in order to ensure their safety. And so to me, when when I reflected on that particular account, it felt really clear that the right thing to do, and the strategic thing to do was to ensure that we weren't throwing another community under the bus.

Chip Gruen:

So connected to that, I've been looking one of the outlets that you write for is Religion, News Service, you have the Articles of Faith is the the name of the column that you write. And the topics that you deal with are relatively far ranging right, between questions about various religious minorities, for example, both in the US and abroad. And I wondered if you could just address for a minute, what you what you see your beat as, right, what is the through line? What is the thing that holds together your work? You know, when you're when you're writing and thinking about these types of issues?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And I think I think, you know, I'll explain first how I got to it. And then and then talk about the through line, but but I think the how is very much my experience of being on the margins in this country, and, and really having to constantly find a way to feel like my voice and our community's voices being heard. And that experience, I mean, it shows up over and over again, as a theme, right? So I have a children's book that just came out. And when I was a kid, and even when I was writing this book now, people had been saying, well, there's no market for that, those stories aren't relatable, no one has interest in people like you essentially, what was the message. And that's happened, you know, in all different contexts. When I, when I started my graduate studies, and I got to Harvard Divinity School, you know, it's it's the most resourced university in the world. And I get there, and they say, well, we don't really do Sikhism, but you can study Islam and Hinduism instead, and then figure it out from there. And so I did, and that's kind of what I've had to do. But that's the story, not just of me, but also so many people on the margins. And I think it's that experience of knowing what it's what it feels like to be left out and overlooked. That's really animated my passion for helping various communities be seen. And so within my beat, the through line really feels like bringing visibility to underrepresented stories to marginalized groups. And to do so with the angle of justice, right? I'm not just interested in describing what people's experiences are like, I also want people to think about what does equity look like for them? What does fairness look like for them? Where did they want to be? And where do we want them to be? And essentially, where do we all want to be? Right? That to me is the through line that shows up in different ways, because we have so much diversity in this world, and we have a diversity of problems too. And so trying to sort of lift up those problems so that we are able to better see them, and then also to start indicating, or at least pointing towards opportunities for growth. And I think that to me, Feels like. I mean, I'll just say one more thing about that this is what I do in my writing. But it's you know, I teach right now I'm teaching a course on global Buddhist histories. I've taught Islamic studies before. I've taught Hinduism I've taught Sikhism. So in many ways, it's almost like, there's this feeling that I have that although I have my own particular identity and convictions as a Sikh, my interest is not limited to that. It's very much oriented around this idea that none of us will have freedom until all of us has freedom. And that's and that's a very progressive liberal value. But it's also something that's rooted in my in my faith as well.

Chip Gruen:

So the picture book you mentioned is Fauja Singh Keeps Going.

Simran Jeet Singh:

That's right. Yeah.

Chip Gruen:

The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a Marathon. And I'll just have, you know, my wife is actually elementary school teacher. And as soon as I am done with this, this is going right into her into her library. So there's another group of people who will be exposed to these lessons. And and I'll just say, I would encourage people to pick this up whether you have little kids in your life or not, because it's not only dealing with the idea of religious and cultural minority and being on the outside, but it also considers disability and other types of ways that people are marginalized, you know, in our world, I think it's super edifying. And and I really enjoyed looking at that. And I think you've addressed this already, but the children's book, right, so this has to do with representation. I mean, how much did you write this for young Sikh kids who don't see themselves in books? And how much did you write this for everybody else who don't see Sikhs in books?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Oh, it's such, it's such a good question. Because I think when I started writing, the answer was one thing. And then that at the end of it, it was something else. And what I mean by that is, you know, growing up as a Sikh in Texas, not seeing Sikhs in any sort of media, and real and really wishing my friends could just see it so that they would see us as more normal. It was my dream from childhood, that I would that I would start writing children's books, right, so so that, to me, was very much this. This is something for the kids in my community. And for my younger self, too. But as I started writing it, so I'll say I made that promise to myself, when I was a kid, kind of forgot about it. I mean, it was always in the back of my mind. But then when my older daughter was just about to be born, that memory, that commitment took took a life of its own again. And so that's when I really started writing. But at first, I was just writing stories about Sikhs, right? Like, it took me a while to land on this story. And I think what I was struggling with was, I very much wanted a story in which kids of my community could see themselves. But I also started to recognize that through my work in racial justice circles, especially my vision of what I wanted to do in this world had changed a bit. And it wasn't just about lifting up my community was also about opening up doors, or at least windows as we talk about them in the in the children's book world. Windows through which people could see who we are. And you know, in the children's world, you talk about windows and mirrors, children's books are windows and mirrors we can think about all education as windows and mirrors right? In our conversations around representation. Part of the value is to say, you can see yourself and imagine yourself as a hero. And that's really important to me, as a father, as I'm looking at my two girls, who watched me be racially profiled when I walked through airport security, and they're getting these messages that, and I know this is going to happen, they'll be ashamed and embarrassed that their dad wears a turban and looks different. And so to have some sense of pride, some positive messaging around that feels really important to me as a parent, but also the kids in my daughter's class are not Sikh. And they're not even South Asian, most of them. And so what does it mean for them to get a positive message through a window, you know, using this book, I mean, that, to me, has become equally important. And so initially, while it was it was very much a mirror proposition. Over time, it's become a balance of both things. And I see equal value in both because, you know, as much as as much as it's about instilling pride in our own kids and making them feel proud of who they are. It's also about ensuring that others around us are recognizing not just the challenges that we endure, but also our underlying humanity. And I think I think that's something that we don't do enough with our young kids and it's become increasingly important for me.

Chip Gruen:

So one of the pieces of vocabulary in other writing that you do, that I wanted to just kind of highlight and drill down on a little bit is the characteristic or the habit of mind of empathy, and empathy towards others and you use that a fair amount. What, what exactly do you mean by that? And how do you think it's particularly important to sort of the contemporary discourse around religious diversity, cultural diversity, racial diversity, you know, all the sort of issues that we face in our world?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, I appreciate that question a ton because, you know, it's not, it's not often something that comes up in conversations with academics, especially, you know, we're, we're trained to believe, and I believe this growing up too, and I still think there's some truth to it, but it's not the entire truth. We're trained to believe that knowledge is our salvation, that if we know about one another, then we'll be kinder to one another. And the more we know, the better off we are, which, to some extent is true. But it's also true that we are the most knowledgeable civilization in human history, that we have more access to information than any other group of people at any other time in the world. And look at where we are, right? Like, we're not, we're not I wouldn't say we're actually at the peak of human civilization. I mean, in many ways, it feels like we're regressing. And so it can't be that knowledge is going to solve the kinds of problems that we have today. It is it is our inability to connect with one another, to see one another to treat each other with dignity. That really creates a lot of our problems, right? Like one of the major discussions we're having in our country right now is around supremacy, different kinds of supremacy, right? So you can call it white supremacy, you can look at gender supremacy, you can look at nationalistic supremacy, I mean, all of them require this logic that make us see ourselves as superior and other people as inferior. And the only way you can do that is if you dehumanize people and say they are less than or subhuman. And and that is I mean, that is that is the underlying problem of so much of our pain today. So if that's the problem, then what's the antidote? Maybe there was a time when I believe that knowledge was the antidote. And that that would correct all of these issues. But now as I look around, that doesn't seem to be the case, there has to be something else. And so to me, it's really become almost so clear that it's obvious. And I think once we think about it, it makes sense that if dehumanization is the problem than learning how to humanize one another, learning how to see the humanity in one another, to connect, to feel with one another, and for one another, I think that's the solution. And so that's, that's what I mean by empathy. And it's why I've started to make so much effort around, around building that because I think it's something we desperately need in our world today.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, so the mission statement for the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding, I wonder if it gets at this because we have two goals. One, I think is that information piece that the literacy piece, right, people need to know, you know, who the people in their neighborhood are, right, who the people they see on the street. The other part, and maybe it is sort of my academic-ness sort of coming out. But I talk about modeling as sophisticated discourse, modeling conversation. And and I guess I would hope that what is being modeled there is, you know, is humanizing and imagining somebody, you know, everybody else to have, you know, their own value aside from you, or their utility to you. That's at least my hope.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah. And I think I think that makes good sense. I think, especially in a context where we don't have models for disagreement, and different opinions in ways that allows for those differences to exist, but also for our humanity to remain intact. And so yeah, absolutely. I think I think modeling is a critical component of how we can build up empathy. And really, I think show students, community members, other stakeholders, like there is a way to do this. And I think I think it's a really important first step that educators can consider. I mean, it's something we know how to do. It's something we've been trained to do. But it's not something we necessarily do publicly. And it's not something we do around them or difficult conversations that are on people's minds. And so creating spaces for that, where people can see, oh, I understand not just that this is possible, but I can I can learn some techniques and some skills around having these kinds of conversations and staying connected to people. I think that's critically important. So I yeah, I'm right on the same page with you there.

Chip Gruen:

You also have a forthcoming book that is not a children's book, a forthcoming book, The Light We Give: The Power of Sikh Wisdom to Transform Your Life. And from my admittedly limited interaction with the Sikh community, and I'm not a scholar of Sikhism, I'm a scholar of Ancient Christianity, primarily. But from my limited exposure, it seems like there are a lot of places where things that we might call civic engagement or social responsibility are dealt with head on, in Sikh tradition, at least from from what I've seen about the pre publication things about this book that seems to be what you're what you're interested in, what you're going going for, is that sound about right?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, it's, it's part of my hope of this book, that it's not just an introduction to Sikhism, which which it also is, right, like, I'm hoping that people will learn about a faith, you know, the world's fifth largest that they haven't yet encountered, probably. And so it is introductory in that way. But to me, the value of religion and Sikhism in particular is not limited to its history. And to its influence, it's also what are and and this is why I value it so much, and why I cherish it, there are some real gems that can help make our lives better. And there are some people who have lived in this world of various traditions who have figured out things that we are having a very difficult thing figuring out. And so you know, some of these questions that I've struggled with in my own life, some of which have to do with the kinds of racism I've experienced, and learning how to deal with that, right? Like, how do you? How do you love someone who hates you? How do you respond to hate with love? but also things that are, you know, more, I would say, everyday experiences too. Including, you know, what does it look like to see someone around you, as part of yourself? What does it look like to deal with, with the the ego and the greed and those kinds of challenges that come in life? And I don't, I don't think I don't see many young people, or people in our world generally, finding good answers to those questions. I feel like I've found good answers through my tradition. And so it's, it's just a matter of, for me taking those ideas and, and trying to share them with the world because I think it could make people's lives better and make our society better.

Chip Gruen:

So it occurs to me that that some of the language that you use, describing your work around justice, and equity, and so forth, that that conversation, the way that we have that conversation has changed a little bit over the past five to 10 years, and maybe even more recently than that, you know, that the language of allyship, for example, is not something when I was in high school, right, or college or even graduate school was was very common at all. I mean, how, how have you found that conversation? And I would guess, a more of a notion of solidarity. You know, how have you seen that change? And how have you seen your work, particularly around anti-Asian hate and acceptance and recognition of Sikh traditions fitting in into that and the shifting conversation?

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, it's, it's, you're right, that it's changing quite a bit have changed a lot since I was in school. It feels like it's changing by the hour still. And so you know, something that was appropriate and acceptable yesterday may not be appropriate and acceptable today. And that's, that's really scary for a lot of people. And I think what's even more scary. And this is something that I see as a gap in the way that this discourse is developing. What's even more scary, is that there's very little space being left for mistakes and missteps. And and I think that's, that's something that is incredibly dangerous to these really important movements and to these really important conversations, because when you scare people away from trying, because they know that, that a wrong move could result in their cancellation, as we're calling it now. I mean, that keeps people from trying even when they want to, and it doesn't account for the reality of our lives, which is you know, we're all starting from a different place, and everything is a journey. And so, yes, I think these conversations are critical. And the progress I mean, it is incredible. And I'm really excited about it and where things are headed. But I'm hoping, and this goes back to our point around empathy. I'm hoping that there's a little bit more space or maybe a lot more space created for people to learn for people to not be perfect because that's that's who we are. And the longer we continue to go this way of shutting people down rather than opening them up, I think we were only going to be self destructive I that's that's my concern. The other the other thing that I'll say here, and this might be a little bit more, well, it's a little bit more optimistic, I should say, I'm really excited about the opening up of conversations that I've been wanting to have, for a long time based on my own experiences. But now it's okay to have them right. So what I mean by that is 20 years ago, 10 years ago, I was working on white supremacy, but I wouldn't ever say it in public, I might say it in an academic setting. But there was no way you would get me to talk about whiteness, or white supremacy, or even Christian nationalism, because of the consequences of that people wouldn't get it first of all, but second of all, you would be skewered. That's changed entirely. I feel comfortable talking about those things. And I'm hoping that as these conversations continue to open up, as people continue to push the envelope, there's more on the table for us to consider and discuss openly and honestly, so that we can actually start dealing with some of the ills of our societies, I think that's a really exciting part of the proposition that, that I'm observing and feeling like this is this is a really cool time to be working on these issues.

Chip Gruen:

So one of the sort of the taglines, the hallmarks, the things that we really like to do on ReligionWise, on this podcast, is to consider what our listeners can do. Right? That is, this is not just an esoteric conversation between us, but instead, to some extent, we want people to be able to sort of take something away, you know, to get homework to figure out what it is that that they can do to not only be accepting of people around them, but also live their own best, you know, form of themself as well. So what would be some things that you know, somebody not in academia, somebody not knee deep in these issues, necessarily, should take away from this conversation?

Simran Jeet Singh:

It's a great question, you know, the thing about life is that there are countless things that all of us can do. And so it's, it's hard to boil it down into one. And even within those countless things, there are categories, right, like, educate yourself, you know, help connect, all that stuff is important. Maybe maybe the thing I'm thinking about today has less to do with external contributions and more getting into this empathy piece. And I'll share one idea that can help open people up to that if they're interested. And that is, you know, one of the challenges around bias is that we typically don't know it exists, until until we're slapped in the face with it. And we're like, oh, my God, I can't believe I thought that way, or I didn't realize that I thought that way, or whatever it was, right. And we all have these areas where we're not aware. And so the practice I think, is, every day when you are going about your work, or you're in social interactions, or whatever, try at least once to pause and reflect on when you felt judgment. Was there a moment today where I was judging someone? It's really hard to do in the moment, because because we're all busy judging. But if you can go back and say, oh, that was a place where I thought something was messed up because of the way I am biased about that particular identity or behavior or whatever. I think that is a way it's worked really well for me. Just a way to start undercutting some of the biases you have. And when you can do that you open yourself up to connecting with people better and more and building that empathy muscle. So that's, that's maybe something that people can take away from our conversation today.

Chip Gruen:

Yeah, that's an interesting one of the you know, one of the things in the last five years or so I've started using the word metacognitive with my students all the time about thinking about the way that we're thinking, and this is maybe metacognition, but but not necessarily about cognition, but about judgment and bias. I don't know that we have a name for that, but being reflexive about the way that we, that we perceive and emotionally might react to situations.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Exactly. I mean, it's it's one of those things. I mean, as an educator, one of one of the most rewarding things about educating is not dumping information on people, but realizing that you've helped people learn how to think. And one of the ways you do that is you help people step away from themselves and observe their own thinking. And so this is just another approach of that. We've all done it in some form or another. But we typically don't do it about this. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's a really powerful exercise that can help us do something different than than we've probably done before. Thank you.

Chip Gruen:

This has been really great. I really appreciate the chance to get to know you a little bit and to have this conversation.

Simran Jeet Singh:

Yeah, same. Thank you.

Chip Gruen:

This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. For more information and additional programming, please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There, you'll find our contact information, links to other programming, and have the opportunity to support the work of the Institute. ReligionWise is produced by the staff of the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College, including Christine Flicker, and Carrie Duncan. Please subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next time.