Today's conversation features Jane Fitzpatrick, a contributing writer to Religion Matters who covers the intersection of religion and the performing arts, with a particular emphasis on the opera. Conversations about religion in the public square happen in all kinds of contexts. This episode considers the many ways that religion is both represented and critiqued in the high cultural form of the opera. We also consider storytelling within both the performing arts and religion, in particular the interpretation and reinterpretation of narrative that is a hallmark of both.
Show Notes:
Today's conversation features Jane Fitzpatrick, a contributing writer to Religion Matters who covers the intersection of religion and the performing arts, with a particular emphasis on the opera. Conversations about religion in the public square happen in all kinds of contexts. This episode considers the many ways that religion is both represented and critiqued in the high cultural form of the opera. We also consider storytelling within both the performing arts and religion, in particular the interpretation and reinterpretation of narrative that is a hallmark of both.
Show Notes:
Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip Gruen. Today's conversation features Jane Fitzpatrick, a writer whose work has appeared in "The Interfaith Observer" and"Appreciate Opera," and currently serves as a contributor to "Religion Matters." Her beat covers religion and the arts, in particular religion and opera. I think how this conversation emerged is worth a little bit of consideration. Jane is herself a listener to ReligionWise, and reached out to us took our invitation seriously that, that if you have a topic that is of interest to the topic of the podcast to reach out, and so we're so happy that she did. Even at first blush, this confluence of religion and opera seems like a very fruitful place to have a conversation. If we think about both the subject matter and the context for opera over the last several hundred years, we can see that there are a lot of examples that we could pull out and we can talk about, we, unfortunately, are only to scratch the surface on particular operas here, but I think there's a larger point that's also interesting to consider. When we think about religion and public life, one of the things that I think that we're really interested in is, where does that conversation happen? Where do we consider the boundaries of religion? Where does the conversation about religion and its influence on people, culture, history, etc., where does that happen? And the arts is one that admittedly, we haven't really talked a lot about on the podcast, but I think is a fruitful avenue to move forward so that when you see religion depicted, for example, in opera, how is it depicted? Is it imagined as an unambiguous good? Is it imagined as a place for potential corruption? Is it imagined as ideally, a spiritual endeavor that is influenced by you know, the foibles and flaws of humans who participate in it, I mean, we can imagine a lot of different ways in which the conversation of religion can happen here. Additionally, one of the things that I was really happy to talk about in this conversation, and you can hear Jane and I discuss is the ways in which artistic representation has several lives built into it. So for example, if a opera is set in the ancient past, that is one of the contexts if then it is imagined in an operatic setting in, say, the 19th century, that is another context. And then as it's performed in the contemporary world, that is another context so that we can see the really the layers of meaning the layers of interpretive possibility. And the real understanding that happens is not only a function of the Performing Arts in this case, but as a function of how religion functions as well, the telling of narratives and the retelling in the recontextualization. So I think that's super interesting as well. And finally, I'll just say that sometimes these things are coincidentally even more relevant than you might imagine, at first blush. So you'll hear conversations about contemporary events in Israel and Gaza, and the Ukraine, as cases in point where we have contemporary conflict, contemporary issues being distilled right through artworks that are that are being performed, right in the contemporary context. But we're not originally intended to speak to those to those contexts, they originally dealt with other things. So again, this process of interpretation and reinterpretation, I think is, is really key and really interesting for us to think about. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jane Fitzpatrick, I hope you enjoy it. Jane Fitzpatrick, thanks for being on ReligionWise.
Jane Fitzpatrick:Thank you so much for having me.
Chip Gruen:So I wanted to start off with with you and your vocational trajectory. So you cover religion in the arts, in particular, religion and opera. And your work has appeared in a number of different outlets, including the "Religion Matters," "Interfaith Observer" and "Appreciate Opera," but beyond your interest in religion, your professional training has also been in International Studies. And I should also add here, you've had some experience in operatic performance as well. Can you talk about how you came to follow this beat how you came around to thinking about religion and opera? It's actually kind of coincidentally been a theme of the last couple episodes of ReligionWise that vocational paths are sometimes unpredictable. So can you talk a little bit about yours?
Jane Fitzpatrick:First of all, I am a huge fan of the podcast. One reason being that I find several of your guests very relatable. And their work is exceedingly inspiring. So thank you for that. For me, when I was very young, I remember my dad asking me, What do you want to be when you grow up? The typical question to ask a young person, right? For some reason, I always had a list. So I could never choose just one thing. And I don't think I've grown out of that habit in the least. So I started singing probably around middle school age, my grandma was actually an opera singer. And my mom and I fell in love with opera, she would take me to our local movie theater to see the Metropolitan Opera's live broadcasts of their productions. So that had a big played a big role in how I became interested. But then, of course, I found out that it's really fun to sing too. In high school, I found that I had a strong interest in religion, and cultures, particularly through literature, and symbolism in classic literature, I just found myself really drawn to those topics of religious parallels. But one, one of the main reasons I chose to major in religious studies in college was because I really found that studying religious traditions encompassed so many disciplines, under the humanities umbrella, like I said, I've always wanted to be so many different things. I love to study languages. I love art history. So I picked that up in college. And then I earned my Master's degree right after in international affairs, as you said, and I was able to concentrate in religions. But during those two years, I felt such a desperate need to keep art and especially opera in my life, I think I've I've run into many stages in life where I felt like I needed to choose right, or something needs to be rested while I work on something else, you know, I need to pursue something that will make me money, I need to prioritize my time. But I just think that art making is so critical to emotional and mental well being for me anyway. So I figured out different ways to incorporate all of those different passions and artmaking into my studies. And I was surprised at the time, but I think now it's pretty blatantly obvious after done... after having done so much research that religion, international affairs and opera have always been uniquely entwined. And so I'm excited to talk a little bit about that today.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, and so you, you have the opportunity to think about that in your writing, obviously, which is sort of the grist for our conversation today. And in that writing, you feature a number of particular operas. And we'll get to some of those specifics. And I have ones I want to talk about, and I welcome you to talk about particular ones that you think offer particular insights are meaningful for you. But I want to start more generally, and depending on the context, the composure of an opera, you know, can choose to make religion function very differently in different pieces, right from being either an earnest representation that seeks to offer a religious truth, to a critique of religious sentiment or a critique of religious institutions. I mean, we can see examples of many of these things. We'll talk about some of those today. But the opera can be kind of a blank slate, as you know, the performing and plastic arts can be in lots of ways. So how do you think about that confluence of the two of these things of opera and religion? Do you see big picture connections that are a through line your thinking? Or do you think that each new project that you think about or each new opera you think about is mostly context specific?
Jane Fitzpatrick:I would say when I'm approaching an opera, that I work with it in such a way that considers a set of various contexts and how it plays with those contexts. So you can certainly analyze just the story itself, and then how the musicality goes with it to create an operatic performance. But a lot of performers even will dive into looking further beyond and seeing where that story came from. Who are these characters via a biblical story or a moment in history, a fictionalized story Then you might be interested in how the composer chose this narrative, and how they saw it from their own personal historical context. And then you can look at the context in which the opera then has been staged, even centuries later. So, as an example, I understand that not everyone who's going to be listening to this episode will know a whole lot about opera, you may or may not be familiar with Mussorgsky’s Boris Gudonov, as an example. And we might talk a little bit about that one later. But to set the stage in a way, just imagine an American singer, playing a Russian Tsar during the Cold War. That's pretty significant imagery, right? There are clearly a lot of different perspectives we can talk about in that real life scenario that did take place. And not least of them being the role of the Russian Orthodox Church, it plays a massive role in that specific opera. And that can tell us a whole lot about Russian culture, about how that looks when the art form interacts with current politics, and world affairs. So to answer your question, long story short, there are a lot of specific contexts that I sort of list out for myself to explore. And then I realize that each opera has its own story to tell in different times in different settings.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, well, let's go ahead and talk about that Boris Gudonov example, I think this is a good place to talk about it as any that you know, one of the things you see, this opera is described as it's considered a quote unquote, celebration of Russian identity. Right? So imagining that playing in the Cold War, right is obviously one case in point where you talk about context. But the other is that in 2022, this was scheduled to be performed by the Polish National Opera. And of course, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, sort of sprung up. And I've got a quote here, actually, the director said in response to this, they canceled the performance, they canceled the run of the show. And he said, We are based in Warsaw, a city that vividly remembers the first bombs that fell from the sky during the Second World War. We are deeply affected by the war in Ukraine and the suffering of the Ukrainian people. We admire the heroism of the Ukrainians who have stood up to defend their motherland. Right. And that was sort of the the explanation of the cancellation of that. So I mean, what do you think of that? I mean, right. It's obviously a world away from the composition of the opera itself. But of course, a relevant, you know, thing to think about contemporary context as well.
Jane Fitzpatrick:You know, there's always going to be a part of me as an opera lover, and a lover of the arts that wants to be able to appreciate art for art's sake. And I think that one of my favorite things about going to a theater is that you can feel like you've left the outside world for a few hours, and you're being transported to a new space with new opportunities. But I also have to honor the fact that for lots of people, including myself, at certain times, we can always leave our identities at the door and understand a new set of beliefs, a new perspective, it can be very challenging. So Boris, good enough, is celebrated as a distinctly Russian opera, acknowledging that is simply an understanding of the history and the intention of the work and of the history of Russian culture. So but it does raise the question, then, are we canceling the work as part of an effort towards erasure or demonization of a specific culture? An artistry? Maybe that sounds extreme? But if not, then where does that effort in limiting artistic and cultural exchange in that direction, stop. It's important to have the conversation, particularly in the arts, and understanding the role that arts play in society and International Affairs. And I think we should all recognize that what we create and what we promote, is always going to mean something, we can't always escape that. Now, if you have an opera, of course, that blatantly puts down certain religious and minority groups, then the conversations are all the more critical in talking about why are we continuing to reproduce these these works, what, what does it means for us now in today's world,
Chip Gruen:Yeah, so this brings us back I think, to one of the major I mean, we've already talked about it a little bit here, but the importance of storytelling and narrative right that those narratives are not are neither disassociated from the past, though maybe not a perfect representation of the past, but then can be interpreted and reinterpreted and re understood in various other historical contexts. So obviously, you know, this is also true of religion, right, that religious story, religious narrative is important. And you don't have to read too deeply into ritual and performance studies, before you start to see connections between theatrical performance more generally, and, you know, connections to religious rites and observance. I mean, you see so many ritual studies books, I mean, maybe they don't start, but they ended up in Greek theatre at some point, right, that that's a super important part of that field, I think. So, religion and opera, you know, fill this need of storytelling, and I think similar ways. I mean, how much do you see them as sort of rhyming with one another as cultural productions religion and, and opera? Or is there some aspect of the entertainment value or the performance value of opera that make it a different kind of phenomenon altogether?
Jane Fitzpatrick:I think there are a few ways to take that question. From a religious studies background, we can certainly say that they several religious traditions have utilized the practice of reenactment and role playing. And so sometimes the concept of performance gets blurred, or used in certain ways during ritual, which can be really interesting. From an arts perspective and acknowledging that entertainment value. I think what is really special about the arts as a whole, and certainly the performing arts space, is that, as I mentioned, sometimes you can't, sometimes you can, but as an audience member, there are times when you can make a few choices about how you enter that space, and how you consume what's being offered to you. So in light of discussing interfaith frameworks, including non religious voices, everyone can feel welcome to engage with performance. In this way. You can be an outside observer, if that feels comfortable at the time, you don't have to feel like an outsider, you can certainly have a spiritual enlightenment from the nosebleed seats. If you feel compelled, I know, music often makes me cry. So and whether that's a religious experience, or, you know, just emotional fulfillment, there's a lot of there's a large span for how you consume and interpret that experience. Now, as I said, you might be able to leave personal identities and beliefs at the door for a moment and be open to seeing the world through a different perspective. Put yourself in someone else's shoes, for example. Or you may feel validated and personally inspired by the traditions and lived experiences being portrayed. So what's coming to mind for me is one of my favorite works, which is"Dialogues of the Carmelites" by Francis Poulenc. It's about a group of Catholic nuns who chose to die for their faith rather than assimilate to a secular life. This was a true story, from the reign of terror during the French Revolution. And I haven't met anyone thus far, who doesn't feel a sense of awe when they watch the final scene of that opera, wherein if you're unfamiliar, the nuns choose to walk to the guillotine, singing the Salve Regina. Now, even the music itself is very haunting. And I personally remember feeling very emotional when I was rehearsing it and performing myself about a year ago, having to also serve as the dramaturge for that production, which is amazing experience for me. I've done a lot of historical research on this particular work. So I know that even the composer was struggling personally, while he was working on this piece with his faith and the concept of death. So there's a lot that you can explore there, and how opera can be interpreted whether you see it for its entertainment, or you want to dive deeper and you want to feel what was felt by those nuns, by Francis Poulenc by the actors in front of you, as an audience member if you want to simply relate to those nuns through a sense of shared humanity and bravery standing up for what they believe in just more generally. That's wonderful. Right? I would argue that's still quite productive in working towards interfaith peace among religious and non religious peoples in the world. But at the same time, I'm going to want to acknowledge that you can't separate their bravery from their devotion to their faith that's at the core for them, I think it's important to understand that they can also be seen as feminists role models, or defenders of religious freedom, I actually wrote a piece last fall, where I looked at the sacrifice of the Carmelites. And their suffering, and then looked at the suffering of Muslim women in France in contemporary times. And both groups there just wanted to wear their religious garb and live their lives peacefully among secular groups as well. But they were challenged by those secular policies. So it was a very interesting comparison there. And to sort of round out what I'm saying, I guess you could say, come for the free music, stay for a new perspective on religious experience, or maybe even have religious experience for yourself. But then what I really encourage is have conversations outside of the theater to make the performance, the entertainment, or art really, actually mean something to you and the world that you want to see.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, I think I mentioned in a previous episode, I'm doing my Religion and Popular Culture class right now and, you know, I don't know we will talk a little later maybe about whether opera is popular culture or not. But the idea of talking about something is either religion or not religion, I think, doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me, right? But instead, the idea of how can something function for the individuals who are participating in it or observing it or whatever, and it sounds like you would make the case that that certainly the opera can be a religious experience. You know, a la somebody like Rudolf Otto or Mircea Eliade or somebody like that. So let's move on to another one of the operas that you highlight in your writing. One of those is Giacomo Puccini's Tosca. So major themes in this work include authoritarianism, power, corruption, but the church and the depiction of religious values serve as both the literal and figurative backdrop in the story, in fact, several of the scenes feature religious landscapes or religious contexts, including the climax at Castel Sant'Angelo in Rome. One of your major claims is that taking religion seriously in the opera generally, and in this case, Puccini's Tosca is essential to understanding the work and more abstractly opens new interpretive possibilities, and offers broader commentary or lenses through which to see the worldview of the composer and the characters themselves. Can you help us see about the functions of religion in Tosca? And then maybe you could just start with a quick synopsis and then and then make the case for the importance of the religious imagery there.
Jane Fitzpatrick:Sure. Tosca is about a beautiful and devoutly faithful woman named Tosca who falls in love with an artist and political outcast named Cavaradossi. Scarpia is the chief of police. And he wants to drive Tosca away from Cavaradossi and into his arms. Of course, he is the villain, and he uses religion for nefarious purposes, shall we say? So Cavaradossi is eventually taken to prison. He's tortured and set to be executed for his political rebellions. However, Scarpia tells Tosca that he will make an order to fake the execution and let Cavaradossi live. So long as Tosca gives herself to Scarpia. He ends up being quite rough with her and though she accepts the deal for her love, she finds an opportunity during his advances and stabs him to death. Tosca then rushes to her lover, where she believes his execution will be faked, but naturally Scarpia did not keep his word. So realizing that Cavaradossi is dead, Tosca jumps from the top of the Castel Sant'Angelo, and the curtain descends. The Tosca is a very popular work. If you can't tell it's really got that operatic drama down to a tee and it's been popular for a really long time and staged so many times, I would say, and people often argue that it's their favorite, their best, or might even have been their first opera that they've ever seen. It's definitely a good conversation piece for this discussion. And some of my most favorite research that I've done is on that last scene where Tosca takes her own life, after realizing that Cavaradossi is dead. Because there is this one figure in particular that always haunts me in those final moments. As I mentioned, the final scene takes place atop the Castel Sant'Angelo, and who is standing atop the Castel Sant'Angelo, that is a statue of St. Michael, the archangel. And that statue is a very unique history and role in the history of Rome, and the Catholic Church. And one thing that is special about Tosca, and many operas that incorporate religions, to be sure is that there are so many details that you could single out and pull apart for days. So that statute, it doesn't sing, it doesn't move. But it's always a feature in the productions of Tosca. And it's really the last thing that you see. And that leaves such a lasting impact for me anyway. And just that one element, demonstrates how intense and how important that religious backdrop even though it's not a living, breathing character, it really is. I would certainly describe the presence of religion in Tosca as very intense. So the story is sett in Rome, 1800, with, as you said, real architectural elements that make the images of the Catholic Church and also its engagement with politic, very vibrant, and almost consuming for the characters and their choices. So it is literally and figuratively a dramatic backdrop, while they're praying while they're talking about morality. But also while they commit some very serious mortal sins, you could certainly do a little dive into personal versus institutionalized faith as well as true faith versus the critical manipulation of faith and piety.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, and it was we were talking you know, a little bit back and forth about this conversation, we were both expressing our, our admiration and love for, you know, some of this imagery and, you know, I'm just gonna geek out for a second on just Castel Sant'Angelo as a as a backdrop. And anybody who is has not been to Rome, or if you're going to Rome, go make a plan to visit Castel Sant'Angelo because it has this very long history. It was Hadrian, the Emperor Hadrian in the early second century, his mausoleum, and was later transformed into this Bulwark fortress, that has secret tunnels going into that, you know, into Vatican City itself into the people apartment so that one could could abscond away from St. Peter's and take refuge as when when Rome was sacked in the 16th century as the papal Court did. And so it's just such a fascinating place, right to have this layer over layer over layer of history, kind of, similarly to the idea of what we talked about the story is told, and then it's reproduced in opera, and then it's performed later, just this multi, you know, the kind of the layer, the layered effect of meaning I think it's just so, so wonderful, right? And to think about, you know, that ending image and the religious imagery and the historical imagery and all the things that are going on there. It's just, it's a lot of food for thought, I think. So let's move on to another opera this Italian tradition. And you can't think about Italian opera without thinking about Giuseppe Verdi. So we're going to do a necessary Verdi connection. And his opera Nabucco. This opera, rather than just relying on the context of religion, like we saw in Tosca retells with, of course substantial liberties, a narrative from Hebrew scriptures. Nabucco is the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, and there's high priest Zechariah. And then there are a number of fictional characters that are introduced for the purposes of the narrative. And it tells the story about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem to deportation to Babylon, the eventual restoration to land of Israel, you know, obviously, there's a lot going on here. What do you think about the retelling in this form? Right, the idea of this ancient story that is being sort of recast and reimagined in early nine, early to mid 19th century Italy, right, and then adapted and and represented again, you know, in the contemporary world.
Jane Fitzpatrick:Yes, artistic liberty is a very important element to this discussion, and across many different forms of religious art. So I'm definitely glad you brought that up. Opera loves drama unapod...unapologetically. So, as you mentioned, there are several characters in Nabucco that have not been found in historical documents, including the Bible and the story itself contains several fictional details. But this particular work significantly helped Verdi's career as a composer and it actually resonated with his Italian audiences quite a bit during his time. And it became a kind of political allegory and inspired Italian nationalism. So those sentiments are actually still relevant for a lot of people today, specifically, in The Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves, Va, pensiero. So despite there being some extra drama mixed in audiences still seem to resonate with those core themes there, which is really interesting. And I think another work that might help to answer this question, too, is Rossini's Maometto Secondo. Another Italian composer, who saw the Italian politics of his day wanted to make his audiences happy. Rossini composed an opera about an Ottoman encounter with the Venetians. Mehmed II captured an island governed by the Venetians in the 1400s. And Rossini decided to alter the ending of his own work to demonstrate a Venetian victory instead of the original, and note this historically accurate ending, wherein the Ottomans succeed in conquering the territory. The truth of the matter is that Mehmed II probably, though, it's, I guess, not impossible to not have a tragic love affair during his campaign against the Venetians, as depicted in the opera. And he certainly we do know, did not die there as to get in the revision of the opera. But this work has been performed in both versions, even centuries later. I should point out too, that the libretto is not all that kind towards Muslims, and the Ottoman Empire. So it definitely sympathizes with European Christianity as the hero of story. Now, Maometto Secondo is not a great example for promoting interfaith peace, shall we say. But it's certainly starts an interesting conversation. And it's interesting to see how audiences took what was in front of them, and made it matter to their lives, took the art and entertainment, the performance, and said, I relate to this in some way. I actually did some research about a year ago about how Rossini's work may reflect the [inaudible], which was a European invention, invention of study about the Ottoman Empire. It was very artistic, but also very offensive. So it helped them at that time, sort of conceptualize the people that they were encountering and that were coming towards them. It was not always positive. But that's what makes these contexts so interesting to study and seeing how place and time can really make or break an opera in some ways. And a composer.
Chip Gruen:Yeah. And in speaking of in those contexts can sometimes be intentional, right? I think Verdi writing in 1852, or 1842, to go back to that to that example. Right? Is probably thinking about Italian, you know, unification, right? When he's thinking about the Temple and thinking about Jerusalem and Babylonians and all that, but then you can have something happen that is unpredictable. That sort of puts the whole thing in a whole new light. So, you know, as I was doing preparation for this, I mean, I'm, I'm guilty of not actually being a follower of the opera so I had to do a little research to see this when this was, but I was interested in when Nabucco was was performed, you know, recently. And just coincidentally, it opened on September 28, 2023, and just closed January 26, 2024. So it was in its run when the terrorists, the Hamas terrorist attacks happened in southern Israel in early October on October 7. And so we then get the biblical story, we get an understanding of the biblical story as a telling of an Italian narrative of independence and unification. And then we get it understood by contemporary audiences as being a statement of Israeli nationalism or, you know, an understanding of, you know, the return to the, to the land of Israel and so forth. Obviously hits a lot differently, right, for in that immediate aftermath, you know, and as I was looking at this and thinking about sort of the power of that coincidence, I thought, there has to have been some response, right? And in fact, on October 11, I believe it was, there was a special performance of the cast of that Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves, the Va, pensiero, that was dedicated to the lives lost in in those attacks. I'm haven't found any particular evidence, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but one also wonders, you know, as the response in Gaza happened as well, right, whether there is any, I don't know, protest is maybe too strong a word, but any ill feelings towards the continued production of this opera that is that is so staunchly nationalistic in its tone, again, first for Italian nationalism, but of course, reinterpreted and reunderstood. So I don't know. It's just, it's, it's fascinating to see the afterlife and the, in the way that these things unfold.
Jane Fitzpatrick:I have seen some criticism about the recent production of Nabucco given the current political climate. But I'm not convinced that the criticism has been as intense or perhaps as visible, I'll say, as other productions they've received in other contexts. So for example, in 2014, the Met the Metropolitan Opera faced a lot of controversy for showing a work called the Death of Klinghoffer by John Adams, because many people do feel that the work, may be antisemitic in certain ways, and they don't agree with the perceived display of sympathy towards Muslim Palestinian peoples. And there's also opposing arguments to that, a lot of people feel that that work is really important, and that sympathy is resonating with them quite a lot. It doesn't seem like the tension was as high for the recent production of Nabucco despite these parallels that you mentioned, and coinciding international events, I think you could devote a lot of time and perhaps an entire podcast episode on that comparison. But for anyone who's interested, I think it's about a few things. One of them being analyzing the prevailing sentiments of majority audience members, perhaps seeing one of the story is as history of suffering, whereas the other comes across as a story of victory has something to do with it. So there's the thematic differences and how audiences walk away from it with the resulting emotions might be something to look at. There's certainly a lot that you could speculate about there.
Chip Gruen:So I want to connect, actually, in a way that I didn't necessarily foresee, but something else that we talked about was the relative popularity and reach of opera. And I think this might be a good place to consider that. Because, I mean, if this were, for example, a Broadway show, right, that it probably would not be as hard to find the controversy as hard to find, you know, sort of more raw emotions. I wonder about sort of, there is and maybe we disagree about this, but I see the opera is a little bit more esoteric. I mean, a lot of times it's being performed in another language, right. It is something that at least has the the guise of a particular kind of social and political class being the people who attend. You know, I wonder about you know, about the opera going public. I mean, how do you think about this, how do you think about the reach of opera, how do you see it as culturally relevant again, doesn't sound great. I mean, because it's, of course, it's super culturally relevant, but important to the public conversation about religion or other cultural, political historical topics.
Jane Fitzpatrick:I think American culture certainly has less of an appreciation for opera, unfortunately. But that doesn't have, that doesn't have to be the future. And I certainly want more people to give opera try. And I think it is more accessible than a lot of people think. And certainly, if you can watch a movie with subtitles, then you can definitely watch an opera sung in a different language. And in the vein of religions, I hope that people will try to see it more as a vehicle for sharing an opportunity for dialogue and for peace, rather than for further division, or just an old fashioned way of getting entertainment. I want people to understand that art is important overall. And opera has a lot to say, as we've talked about, it's not always the best promoter of interfaith peace, so to speak, when it's telling an inaccurate story or mistreating certain characters based on their beliefs, but there can still be a meaningful conversation there, I think it can still serve a lot of different cultural purposes, that maybe we're missing out on.
Chip Gruen:Yeah, one of the comparisons, you know, and I mentioned Broadway a minute ago, but one of the comparisons that that has kept coming up in my my mind is the stage show The Book of Mormon. And the reason I bring it up is because, you know, I have had members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as guests on Institute programs here on campus, I've taken students to the local ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we went on a field trip at the dedication of the temple in Philadelphia a number of years ago and got a tour. And without fail, it's not students or public that brings up The Book of Mormon. It's members of the church that bring up The Book of Mormon, and it becomes a touchstone, that as abusive and unfair as that representation is, it becomes kind of a commonplace for a conversation about the church. And so you know, you talk about the way in which opera can misrepresent and not be a fair telling. But I think you're right, that, that it is an entry point into into a narrative all its own.
Jane Fitzpatrick:And yeah, I agree, it can be a great starting point for people to connect, right? So if that is the only exposure you've had to this tradition? Well, let's start there, have a conversation, talk to someone who can clarify things who can take you a little deeper into the understanding of what that work then means to them, what that represents.
Chip Gruen:So I want to kind of as we reach the end here, I want to come back to a more general question. You know, one of the things that I'm continually confronted with in my work and the work of the Institute is the way in which dynamics around you know, Millennial and Gen Z populations towards institutionalized religion have really shifted right that the structures of maybe their parent's or grandparent's generation, are not totally unappealing to all of that newer generation, but are certainly less appealing to some right. So the statistic I always cite here is that matriculating students at the university level report something like 40% non affiliation. And I wonder about the opera here, you know, on a couple levels, one, I mean, just the opera get swept up in that rejection of sort of older cultural forms, and or do religious themes in the opera become less palatable, less interesting, less useful for a new generation of opera goers?
Jane Fitzpatrick:I think a lot of companies have been making an effort to put on more contemporary works, that they think will resonate more with contemporary and younger audiences. I think that's been a huge part of a widespread initiative there. And in some cases, that has meant perhaps less religious detail on the narratives presented, but I don't know why I think I've found that in several cases, the religious traditions have been just as prominent, if not more. And these works have actually sought to inspire future conversations about it. So we talked about the Death of Klinghoffer, that's a contemporary work. Another work called Omar, composed by Rhiannon Giddens contemporary opera about a Muslim man who was brought to America on a slave ship. And after lots of trials and tribulations, really unfortunate story, he is gifted a Bible by one of his owners. And the work actually ends with Omar questioning what this what this religious exchange, and what his own personal religious beliefs in conjunction with the horrible realities that he has had to live through all come together to mean. He's asking, What does this mean? And I think this shows that a lot of contemporary audiences are actually quite eager to look at these questions of religious division of what interfaith can mean, I think this shows that the contemporary world remains very willing and eager to analyze religion through opera. I mean, certainly, you mentioned that we have a growing non religious population. But I think that there's a large portion of that population that's offering a new avenue and saying, why don't why don't we talk about this more? Why don't we talk about these age old divisions? And why can't we explore these questions? Because we all face similar problems. We all have to confront death one day, and we don't know what happens afterward. And things like that, are what religious traditions often confront, right? So to have conversations about, why are these two groups, so divided? Let's talk about it. Is there something there? Well, is this Muslim slave? Is it a good thing that his slave owner that his owner gave him a Bible? Maybe, maybe not really? Right? And what can we, what can we say about that for our future? What that can mean, and what we want the world to look like?
Chip Gruen:I wonder, you know, as you think about this, obviously, one lens and lens that we're choosing to use here is to think about about religion and opera, but almost every example we've come up with has ended up being some kind of disproportionate power relationship, right? That is, you know, Tosca being one and The Dialogues of the Carmelites being another here, Omar being another, you know, I wonder if a modern art audience isn't more interested in those aspects of the story, being sort of front and center, rather than the religious discourses that you and I both happen to be interested in? And not that we're not interested in the others, but but you know, what comes to the foreground, and what recedes to the background might be changing as well. All right, so, um, one of the questions I like to ask, and I want to end up here is, you know, on ReligionWise, I'm very interested in the, in the way that we talk about religion in, you know, that religion is considered within public discourse within the public conversation. And I wonder, you know, where you'd want to leave it here about, you know, what have we not considered about the role of opera in shaping conversation or reflecting conversation? You know, what does opera and the confluence of opera and public discourse look like?
Jane Fitzpatrick:I think I would just want to recognize, again, that I'm not trying to say that all operas should be used. Certainly the ones that incorporate religious tradition, not all of these operas should be used for, quote, unquote, promoting interfaith peace. But as you pointed out with Book of Mormon, it can be such a cool starting point for conversation. And that in many cases is meaningful. And I think what I'll add to that, then, is that we should be listening to the voices of all the audience members that are walking out. So one person may say, this work was really meaningful to me This displayed my story that I relate to, while another audience member says, this goes against everything I've come to believe. And that can happen. That's reality, right? So I just want to add that all of these voices should be heard. And everyone can have something to say, as long as we can acknowledge that everyone's opinion can mean something. I think that having conversations about how we produce and perform operas is critical. And we have to look at each one from its historic context and the current context that we seek to stage it in and ask ourselves what we're saying, by making this art for this audience. And then again, listening to what they have to say in response.
Chip Gruen:It's interesting. I mean, you know, you alluded to this earlier, you know, the peril of sanitizing, right, the collections that were produced in different times, and what does that look like? And what are the what are the costs and benefits of doing that? And, you know, I think as you allude to that, it's the production companies that end up make the making those choices. And I think that's interesting in and of itself to think about how those choices are made and to what end.
Jane Fitzpatrick:Right, and these companies are relying on people buying a ticket. They're relying on people wanting to see what they put on. So they really have to be involved and have their finger on the pulse for how people are going to feel about what they put on.
Chip Gruen:All right. Well, I think that that's where we're going to have to leave it for today. But Jane Fitzpatrick thanks so much for appearing on ReligionWise, it's been fun.
Jane Fitzpatrick:Thank you so much. I look forward to future episodes. As I said, I'm a huge fan.
Chip Gruen:All right, sounds good. This has been ReligionWise. A podcast produced by the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding of Muhlenberg College. ReligionWise is produced and directed by Christine Flicker. For more information about additional programming, or to make an inquiry about a speaking engagement, please visit our website at religionandculture.com. There you'll find our contact information, links to other programming and have the opportunity to support the work of the Institute. Please subscribe to ReligionWise wherever you get your podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next time.